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Oh Greg, we can't let you go that easily.

 

As a foreigner I'm facinated by the fact that you walk around with a gun. Yes I'm sure you are very safe with your gun.

 

But I mean you would seriously use it on another human being? I know there are a thousand scenarios....but if you're walking down the street with your wife and a purse snatcher tries to steal your wife's purse, would you use your gun on the thief or let him have the purse?

 

When I was in the USA I heard about the NRAs utopian society. Every citizen carries a gun, then when some guy pulls out his gun in a McDonald's, the armed citizens return fire and kill him on the spot.

 

One other country with some unusual gun laws is Switzerland. Men in the Swiss army must keep their gun and their army uniform at home at all times. Ready for use if needed. So there are military assault riffles in about 13% of Swiss homes. A pretty high number compared to just about any where.

 

The difference of course is that the Swiss don't take their guns with them when they go shopping, to the bank, or the barbers. Compared to the USA where some states allow you to take a concealed weapon into all of those places. Strange.

 

R,

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Okay Guys,

See these are the issues that come up. I do not want to discuss it anymore on forum because

I think it takes away from purpose here which is craft and art of cinematography. If you want

and anyone else may feel free to do so- E-mail me at pd170user@yahoo.com and I'll be glad

to answer your questions or debate a little with you. Thanks for your posts. You can also write

me at P.O. Box 5057 Harrisburg,PA 17110. I'm not dodging the issues I just do not think they

should be discussed here. We should discuss firearm safety on the set/production here.

 

 

Greg Gross

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Personally, I live in the NYC and all the people I know here do not carry guns and would prefer that there were the kind of gun control laws that would drive any card carrying member of the NRA bezerk.

 

The thing about the 2nd amendment is that it was written at a time when there was no army in the thirteen colonies and the fledgling nation needed everyone who could bare arms to do so. George Washington's "army" was nothing but a bunch of rag tag militias from the states varying in size, experience and quality.

 

After a strategic win at Boston in the winter of 75/76, Washington and his men lost battle after battle until they had nothing else to lose at Trenton. He had been hemoraging troops like crazy but for some reason, the victory against the Hessians on christmas day 1776 (it was xmas wasn't it? maybe it was xmas eve.)boosted the moral of the young nation greatly.

 

It was during this time when they realized they needed an organized army and an academy to teach the military arts which ultimately lead to a standing army and our military academies.

 

So for those who like to ponder the intentions of the founding fathers, there was a time when the second amendment was needed, but personally, after living in the NYC area my entire life, the second amendment is a mistake to keep around. The "well regulated militia" now it the army, navy, airforce, and I think one could include your local police force. I would make an exception for hunting weapons in more rural states.

 

But that is just my two cents.

 

Have a great fourth. Enjoy the "independance"

 

Tim

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"This is the most bizarre thing I have ever read on this forum. ;-) You should make a documentary about one of your camping trips."

 

Keep in mind I live in Anchorage, Alaska and go camping in some places that are very very dangerous to be unarmed. I have run into grizzly bears a few times (one bluffed me once, where they charge at you and stop aproxamatley 200 feet away from you) I would not be caught dead without a wepon (lest I be found dead without one) bear maulings and moose stompings happen here, and you really have to be careful. Bear spray only adds spice to the bears meal. In my state I would argue most have guns for saftey/hunting porposes, and if I ever saw unsafe gun use, I wouldnt go camping with that person.

 

(note that to me an unloaded gun with no clip is still considered dangerous and loaded, and if someone were to put their finger on the trigger pointing any direction, I would regard that as unsafe gun practice. Always assume its loaded, always keep it pointed in a safe direction and always keep your finger off the trigger untill you are about to fire, this includes fingers off while aiming.)

 

There are always idiots with guns....cheney is a disgrace to responsible gun owners.

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"I have run into grizzly bears a few times"

 

I don't suppose there is any possibility you could just stay out of the bears territory?

 

Keeping man and bear apart keeps you both safe.

 

R,

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I don't suppose there is any possibility you could just stay out of the bears territory?

 

lol, like I said, I live in Alaska, its all bear territory. My home is less than 5 miles from a national park where bears are known to reside (and I dont think there are many habitable parts of alaska that don't have bears of some type. once its too cold for brown or black bears, then you run into polar bears, which are much, much more aggressive). I worked for a camp in chugiak, I remember chasing bears out of the camp where kids were running around (the camp being less than a mile away from the highway). With kids close by it was still rare to shoot a bear, normally all that was needed was 5 or 6 people chasing it banging pots and pans. Of course we had like 3 guns ready and waiting should the bear become agressive.)

 

Also note that the bear when he charged did not get shot. I had gun leveled but kept control enough not to shoot until it was the last possible moment. (takes a lot of willpower to hold your trigger finger with a 1500lbs bear charging you) We know the risk up here and we don't let wildlife keep us from nature, after all thats part of the attraction. I have several beautiful stills of moose and caribou and bears. I would not trade the nature around me for a safe environment, and would not unnecisarily kill any type of wildlife. Usually they like to keep their distance, and I keep mine.

 

Being smart around bears, knowing how to tread lightly and keep food and scents from peaking a bears interest keeps us both safe. But should it come to down to one or the other, you can bet the Alaska Fish & Wildlife Service will have a new stuffed bear in their office (if you kill a bear in self defense, of course you dont get to keep the hide or meat or anything, and usually there is a huge fine)

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lol, like I said, I live in Alaska, its all bear territory. My home is less than 5 miles from a national park where

I was a Philco TechRep Field Engineer on Air Force contracts for two years in Alaska. I spent a summer at Cape Lisburne, most of my time up on the hill tending radar gear. We had an M1A2 carbine in the radar hut that was kept loaded and standing instructions to never go outside without it - or someone carrying it. Once in a while a Polar Bear would sniff something good to eat and come up the hill to forage. I never saw one up on the hill but the GI's had to shoot a couple of them down at the base who were hanging around where outside work had to be done. People who have never been up north don't understand that to a hungry Polar Bear you and I are dinner.

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People who have never been up north don't understand that to a hungry Polar Bear you and I are dinner.

 

hahaha. yeah, I remember you telling me about your time up in the good 'ol AK. Yeah, I suppose most think alaska is like the rest of the world, and that bears are just like the are at the country time jamboree in disneyland (my castle to see a group of bears playing bluegrass music and wearing clothes.)

 

Grizzlys arent as bad. Polar bears just dont care. To them you are no threat at all, they are mean mamo-jammers. Grizzlys at least are normally terrified of humans. If your bluffed its because they are scared, and want to size you up. If you turn tale and run: your food. If you and your friends stand your ground they usually stop. Knowing they have a landspeed of 35 MPH, I was more scared to run than stand my ground with them. Either way, a bear sighting turns the whole mood of a camping trip for a few minutes. Usually the best protection is to keep all food and some chemicals several hundred feet away from where your setting up camp.

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Guys, please. This is a CINEMATOGRAPHY forum. As much as I want to speak my mind here, I'm holding my tongue because it's just not right to discuss this here.

 

I apologize for baiting the discussion somewhat by bringing up the whole 2nd amendment thing. I probably shouldn't have done that.

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I remember a scene in Jarhead, a closeup of Jake Gyllenhaal I think, where some shots are fired and they just pulled the audio way down in post and brought it back up later on the cut. That was really effective filmmaking IMO.

 

the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan is also very effective in showing the deafening effect of the artillery and guns, although in this film it also evokes a more existential feeling of displacement and absurdity. My favourite piece of 'subjective' camera- and soundwork.

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Guys, please. This is a CINEMATOGRAPHY forum. As much as I want to speak my mind here, I'm holding my tongue because it's just not right to discuss this here.

 

I apologize for baiting the discussion somewhat by bringing up the whole 2nd amendment thing. I probably shouldn't have done that.

 

"General Discussion"

"Use this forum only if your topic doesn't fit in any of the other forums."

 

You did read of the film-maker who, with his girlfriend, got ate by bears? I'd like to think my post might just help someone filming in Polar Bear country to understand that they are extremely dangerous.

 

I agree in that courtesy does require off-topic posts and threads be in "General Discussion".

 

Tim Tyler,

 

Your opinion please?

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You did read of the film-maker who, with his girlfriend, got ate by bears? I'd like to think my post might just help someone filming in Polar Bear country to understand that they are extremely dangerous.

 

That Timothy Treadwell documentary was SHOCKING! Truly candid and tragic. I definitely would not camp in Grizzly country....gun or not.

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I'm about to start on a documentary that shows people how I live day in and day out with colourists!

 

Yes I work right along beside them with no gun and no cage. I've had numerous close calls, they can be quite vicious you know. Have you ever been near one five hours into his shift and he hasn't had any food?

 

The other thing that is quite dangerous with them is to shine any bright lights in their faces. It freaks them out because they never see bright lights. Since they always arrive at work when it's dark and go home when it's dark, and work in a dark environment all day.

 

A few years back three DPs where killed by five colourists who went crazy on them. Apparently one of the DPs suggested that the chroma was a bit hot and that was it for him!

 

R,

 

PS: On a serious note these guys that work around dangerous wildlife with out protection are fools and asking for trouble. I've filmed great whites from a cage, and there is no way I would try it minus the cage. These guys you have seen in recent years filming white sharks with no cage are fools. It's only a matter of time before one of them is killed, I know it will happen. Then all over the news people will talk about this great tragedy. The tragedy will be that the guy was dumb enough to film a white shark outside of a cage.

 

They are quite huge, and can snap a human in two with one bite. They eat 1,000 pound sea lions for pete's sake, a 175 pound man is a light snack.

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"General Discussion"

"Use this forum only if your topic doesn't fit in any of the other forums."

 

... I agree in that courtesy does require off-topic posts and threads be in "General Discussion".

 

Tim Tyler, Your opinion please?

 

I enjoy reading all the comments here, since (as always) I learn something from every one of them.

 

I've tried to keep my comments concerning "gun safety" relevant to film/video production, if only to point out the possibility that "gun safety" is something of an oxymoron, like "safe cigarettes".

 

Concerning cinematography.com: I get confused as to the distinction between the two forums here, "General Discussion" and "Off-Topic"?

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A few years back three DPs where killed by five colourists who went crazy on them. Apparently one of the DPs suggested that the chroma was a bit hot and that was it for him!

A case of Rouge Rage?

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Then all over the news people will talk about this great tragedy. The tragedy will be that the guy was dumb enough to film a white shark outside of a cage.

 

As far as Treadwell was concerned, I thought the tragedy was not so much that he got killed (c'mon, he was asking for it) but the slow collapse of his psyche. His was a bold and rather desperate spirit that for all his passion (and compassion) was really misguided. Still he offered us a rare and intimate view into the lives of those bears and himself. Werner turned it into a beautiful portrait.

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Please guys; let?s keep this topic off the ?pros and cons? of personal use of weapons in the US. Just take it over to the ?OFF TOPIC? section of the board and I?ll unload on you all. I will post a thread after this posting in ?OFF TOPIC?. Gun safety on the set is massively important let?s focus on that.

 

1. No live ammunition should be near a film set.

2. The weapons should only be handled by the key people designated to handle the weapon, the weapons guy, the prop person, and occasionally the 1rst AD.

3. When the weapon shows up on the set the weapons handler should show openly that he has a weapon and that it is unloaded. He should do this every time weapons arrive on the set. He should show it to the first AD. I am a gun owner and I will often ask to check the weapon myself. As the DP I feel it is in my jurisdiction to ask. But as long as I feel the 1rst AD is competent and I see he has looked at it I am usually ok.

4. Rehearsals should be performed with an unloaded weapon.

5. A handgun should always be handled as if it is loaded. It should never be pointed at anything you do not intend to shoot immediately.

6. Blanks are deadly, ask Brandon Lee and Jon-Erik Hexum. Wait you can?t they are dead! Even blanks used properly send projectiles that can kill or blind. Also the empty shells eject hard and are blisteringly hot.

7. Use proper protection. I carry ear plugs and sound suppression ear-muffs. It is the responsibility of the props people and production to supply them but they aren?t always up to the task. On weapons heavy shows I buy 100 count boxes of ear plugs and put one on the camera cart and one on the monitor. You must use LEXAN to protect crew members. LEXAN is the stuff the make fighter jet cockpits out off. Plexiglas will shatter! I carry my own sheets on the camera truck just in case.

8. As a camera crew you are often in the line of fire. Don?t let production rush you into doing something you are not comfortable with!

9. If you do a lot of weapons oriented shows and I do. Go to the local range and take a firearms course. It will make you a better and safer film maker.

10. Keep you eyes open for unsafe gun handling particularly during the scene. Is the weapon loaded? Does the actor handling the weapon seem competent and comfortable? Does the scene create a situation where the weapon is pointed at an actor at close range? This often happens just in moving the gun from a to b. Also, where are the hot ejected cartages going? Talk to the Director, AD, or the weapons guy if you think it isn?t safe.

11. With regards to checking to see if a weapon is loaded a good firearms course will show you how it should be done. For many reasons I won?t go into it here. But I must say that often times a weapon that appears to be empty is not. After taking the course you will be far more capable of judging the skill of you weapons handler. Most of the guys are great. Occasionally you will get unskilled or even dangerous weapons handlers.

12. One great tip I have for being around weapons is look at the trigger fingers of the folks handling the weapons. The only time the trigger finger should be on the trigger is during the actual act of firing the weapon. At all other times the finger should be in the ready position. That is usually pointing straight and resting above the trigger. This knowledge will help keep you alive. I?m not kidding. When the weapons handler shows up, immediately look at his trigger finger. If he has his finger on the trigger of the ?empty? weapon you are in trouble. You should immediately talk to the AD and say you don?t feel comfortable with the weapons handler. Once the weapons are handed out, often times there may be up to 20 weapons at a given time, look at the trigger fingers of the actors. The ones who have their fingers on the triggers are inexperienced and potentially dangerous. I would talk to the weapons handler and say you aren?t comfortable with that actor can you give him a quick don?t put your finger on the trigger lecture. If you think this is a strange concept look at our soldiers in Iraq getting ready to storm a building under fire. None of them, none, have their fingers on the trigger.

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"Just take it over to the ?OFF TOPIC? section of the board and I?ll unload on you all"

 

Why do I get the feeling you're heavily in favour of a gun totting America?

 

R,

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... Gun safety on the set is massively important let’s focus on that.

 

1. No live ammunition should be near a film set. ...

The list in Bob Hayes' excellent, detailed post will make a valuable and interesting exhibit in a future museum (probably on some distant planet, where the atmosphere will be less radioactive than our post-apocalyptic world ...).

 

Such an exhibit may be attended by future descendents of today's Canadians and other relatively mild-mannered citizenry, who will be both titilated and aghast at the crudeness and brutality Americans (and others) tolerated in their daily, long-gone lives.

 

Back here on present-day Earth, if you want "gun safety", stay the heck out of any area where they're in use, or better yet, lock the darn things up, and best yet: Destroy them all -- except those required by trained and licensed professionals, and a few kept as curios in museums ... the latter perhaps occasionally brought out by _master_ filmmakers to show the falseness of the value of guns and violence -- and certainly never used for "entertainment value".

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The list in Bob Hayes' excellent, detailed post will make a valuable and interesting exhibit in a future museum (probably on some distant planet, where the atmosphere will be less radioactive than our post-apocalyptic world ...).

 

Again, please take it to my "Pros and Cons of gun ownership" post in the "OFF TOPIC" area.

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Again, please take it to my "Pros and Cons of gun ownership" post in the "OFF TOPIC" area.

If the forum moderator/owner directs us to do so, I may.

 

But respectfully, I prefer to keep my comments concerning the absurdity/contradiction of on-the-set "gun safety" here, in the cinematography forum.

 

As my Mom used to say to us kids, "It's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out."

 

She was right.

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