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"pros and cons" of gun ownership


Bob Hayes

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"Guns are an enabler to the crime but with or without them, the U.S. will continue to lead the world in occurances of crime."

 

Well now you've hit the nail on the head! Never under estimate the determination of the American people to kill each other!

 

Take away our guns, and we'll use....baseball bats, poison, knives, hammers, pick axes, sledge hammers, screw drivers, chain saws.......

 

You pinko commie scum will never stop us from murdering each other, NEVER!!!

 

R,

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Much of the pro-gun lobby in the U.S. consists of irrational, or illogical thinkers who think "It's my way or the highway.", and "Might makes right.", and similar drivel.

 

Wait. Did both of us just make a wild accusation? No: You're the one with the gun, so of course you're right and I'm wrong. However, my admition of this makes me the smarter one.

No, blanket, black and white lies got us into, and keep us in, the "situation" in Iraq. Further, the exact same people (including some Democratic politicians) would now have us believe a "bloodbath" will ensue if we "cut and run" (gag me) from Iraq now. A bloodbath will _ensue_? Wait, you mean what's _already_ transpired -- at least tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Americans and non-Americans in the region injured and killed -- doesn't fit any sane person's definiton of a bloodbath?

 

Likewise, as much can be said of similar arguments against gun control in America. Pro-gun folks say, "We've got to have guns, otherwise a bloodbath will _ensue_!"

 

Yup, those pro-gun and pro-war folks sure are the rational, logical thinkers!

I'm sympathetic to your situation, but I'm not convinced (based on the information presented) you have no other options other than to arm yourself. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but rather your firsthand account doesn't convince me we shouldn't have rational, strict gun control in America.

 

Just so it's clear, let me repeat that by "rational, strict gun control" I'd include adequate funding for police and courts to do their jobs, and for communities to "protect" their citizens through education and social services designed to reduce the "need" for criminal livelyhoods.

Yes, most crime in America is committed by white folks against white folks, then next by white folks against non-white folks, and then next by non-white folks against everyone else. Easy access to guns greatly greases the entire process so it's one smooth-running machine.

 

Yet another post filled with rhetoric and cleverly hidden insults that do not address any real issue.

 

I did not say that I own a gun, so I'm right and you are wrong, but you stated your opinion and claimed that it made you smarter than me. If your ego needs it Peter, by all means ask me and I'll proclaim to all the members of this internet message board that you are smarter than me.

 

I'm not a pro violence, pro war, pro gun, nut case. I'm an advocate of having my personal choice to own a gun, and I'm a staunch advocate of you being allowed your opinion as well Peter.

 

 

I will point one thing out to you...If "reducing the need for criminal livelyhoods" means that you think we can rid the world of poverty and therefore the resultant crime, I appluad you. If you believe that this is truly possible, you are truly an admirable person with a good heart. I will however point out to you that it is hardly a rational belief for the earth is over populated and the resources are underdistributed. Poverty, scarcity and therefore the resultant crime will always exist as a matter of scientific numbers that cannot be denied. Regardless of your standpoint of my personal choice and current right to own firearms, I find you to be a dreamer who denies the truth of reality in favor of amicable irrationalities.

 

Shall we stop with the senseless insults of one another at this point and respect each other's opinion?

 

Once again, contact me if this goes somewhere worth rejoining.

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"Once again, contact me if this goes somewhere worth rejoining."

 

Why? You keep coming back of your own accord.

 

R,

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The whole right to bear arms issue was created as a wedge issue under the Regan administration in an attempt to split the Democratic Party. 50% of US families are legal gun owners. The Right knew Liberals wouldn’t be able to back away from the desire for gun control thereby forcing gun owners to vote with the Right. What is funny is that liberals don’t feel guns cause crime. Most of them feel under funded schools, lack of a fair wages, lack of jobs, lack of health care, and lack of child care cause crime. But they’ve gotten obsessed with controlling guns. Why? Because they fear Dick Cheney is going to shoot them? No. They fear some criminal is going to shoot them. So the law abiding gun owners, fearing gun control, vote for some right wing nut that votes against funding schools, fair wages, jobs, health care, child care, and clean air. By the way dirty air probably doesn’t lead to crime. In fact creating dirty air is currently a crime. I don’t know how it fits in the equation but it does.

Bob: Thank you for this. It's a very concise description of much of the situation we find ourselves in. I'm tempted to react to it by saying "We're doomed!", but instead I'll wish us the best of luck. Thanks again.

 

... Luckily, we have a good neighbor who was willing to step in in my absence. My girlfriend's attitude quickly changed about choices in personal defense and regular firearms training was embraced. ...

My apology, but I took the above to imply you are currently a gun user, or would be if you were provoked. If that's incorrect, I stand corrected on that point only.

 

Otherwise, I stand by my statements.

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The whole right to bear arms issue was created as a wedge issue under the Regan administration in an attempt to split the Democratic Party. 50% of US families are legal gun owners. The Right knew Liberals wouldn?t be able to back away from the desire for gun control thereby forcing gun owners to vote with the Right. What is funny is that liberals don?t feel guns cause crime. Most of them feel under funded schools, lack of a fair wages, lack of jobs, lack of health care, and lack of child care cause crime. But they?ve gotten obsessed with controlling guns. Why? Because they fear Dick Cheney is going to shoot them? No. They fear some criminal is going to shoot them. So the law abiding gun owners, fearing gun control, vote for some right wing nut that votes against funding schools, fair wages, jobs, health care, child care, and clean air. By the way dirty air probably doesn?t lead to crime. In fact creating dirty air is currently a crime. I don?t know how it fits in the equation but it does.

And the same creeps who have convinced gun owners to vote against their own self interest have used; gay marriage, immigration, homeland security, taxes, "socialized" medicine, etc. etc. to get millions and millions of people to vote their fears and prejudices and screw themselves.

 

Am I the only person to have figured out that corporations are dictatorships and that the more we allow them to buy politicians, the more this country looks like one giant corporation? Remember the good old days when if a corporate type was in government, his old company was expected to heed to a very high standard in its dealings with government? As opposed to good ole' Halliburton who has been acting as if Cheney was still running the company, rather than the government. I normally believe in the old American tradition of respecting the office, if not the man. I can still (barely) do that with President Bush - but the VP? "Cheney".

 

And - I sure want to see a DNA test proving that Ken Lay really is laying in his grave. And is anyone else wondering why a convicted federal felon was allowed to travel to his vacation home at Aspen? I dated a federal parole officer for a while years ago, I don't remember her talking about letting anyone out of the county, to say nothing of vacationing in Vale. Doris (not her real name) would have busted someone's ass if they had suggested being allowed a palatial vacation out of state while awaiting sentence. But I guess corporate royalty retains it's privileges regardless of its legal status - much like heriditary royalty retains its titles no matter what jail they're in.

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And people still have yet to refute the evidence supplied by N_Chaszeyka.

 

You guys can say all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that there is more to the problem than "guns". As is usually the case, nobody ever wants to address the root of the problem.

 

And no, the roots of the problem aren't education. You don't need to be educated to know killing somebody is WRONG. Besides, the current liberal education systems in America have by and large failed. We need to revert back to the old education system where kids didn't need a calculater to do simple math. Giving them more money would do nothing except add more teachers to an already defunct system.

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"Besides, the current liberal education systems in America have by and large failed. "

 

Yes we can all see that because you can't even spell: "calculator"

 

R,

 

(You spelled it: calculater.)

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No sorry that's not a simple typo, for two reasons:

 

1) The "e" and the "o" are no where close to each other on the keyboard.

 

2) The fact that you used an "e" in place of the "o" means that you actually thought it was spelled with an "e", since they produce a similar sound. Now if you had used a "p" or an "i", that's a typo.

 

Sorry but you are a victim of your own..."current liberal education systems in America have by and large failed."

 

R,

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Sorry Richard, I would think I know my own education abilities better than you.

 

If you look at the word "calculator", and then look at the keyboard, you will also notice the letters "t", "r", and "a" all surround the letter "e". All three letters surround where the "o" should have been in the word.

 

Also, if you look at all my other posts I don't believe there is one misspelled word in any of them.

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Besides, the current liberal education systems in America have by and large failed. We need to revert back to the old education system where kids didn't need a calculater to do simple math. Giving them more money would do nothing except add more teachers to an already defunct system.

 

How come the same folks that say putting more money into education doesn?t solve the problem have no problem spending billions on top of billions unsupervised dollars in Iraq? Saying we should scrap the education system is like looking at a bunch of people clinging to a barely floating life boat and saying. ?We shouldn?t put life boats on our next ship they barely work?.

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Thing is, the education system in America has failed. The war in Iraq is going relatively well, if you look past what the media is constantly showing. My best friend's brother just came back and said things are going great over there. The people causing trouble over there are NOT the average citizens...who by and large want democracy.

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"Besides, the current liberal education systems in America have by and large failed. "

 

Yes we can all see that because you can't even spell: "calculator"

 

R,

 

(You spelled it: calculater.)

 

 

Rich;

 

Your post lacks a comma after the word yes and a period at the end of the sentence prior to the end quotation mark... I regard grammar just as important as spelling. A simple period, Richard! Alack, I see our American system of education (BYU) has failed you miserably as well, to say nothing of the argumentative bore it has produced. C'est la vie!

 

ae

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Whoa.... :unsure:

 

I don't know what to say...

 

England has a higher percentage of divorce and alchoholism than the USA, Germany, France, Canada, etc.

 

In a recent poll %21 of Brazilian men thought it would be "OK" to physically beat their wives for cheating on them. (All the South American countries have higher percentages than the USA and European contries..does this say something about their culture? I'm not being sarcastic.)

 

In America, we have the death penalty and lots of guns. And I have to admit, a really stupid president.

 

Sure, Americans sack there own cities after a sports championship. But Europeans kill each other in mob frenzy over a penalty shot in a soccer game. On the other hand, my parents live in Mississippi. Last time I checked it was in the USA. They only have one abortion clinic in the whole state....hmmmm.

 

I think this has more to do with the human condition than any one country being socially superior to another.

 

This is all a lot of mumbo-jumbo, I know. I guess what I'm trying to say is the homo-sapiens got a crack at it and they're failing miserably. :o

 

Guns, I'm for 'em. Why? I never heard of a gun killing anyone. People kill people. Until we figure out the deeper truth behind that fact it's all hogwash....

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"Alack, I see our American system of education (BYU) has failed you miserably as well, to say nothing of the argumentative bore it has produced. C'est la vie!"

 

Alex,

 

Fine, I'll be the argumentative bore, since you're the pompous ass. I see you're the great gramarian who needs his own grammar corrected.

 

R,

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Thing is, the education system in America has failed. The war in Iraq is going relatively well, if you look past what the media is constantly showing.

 

Three years after he does a press op. on an aircraft carrier saying mission accomplished. The President of the United States has to sneak into Iraq unannounced. Bush can?t even tell the President of Iraq he is showing up until he is in the building for a twenty minute press photo op.. After which he is smuggled out of the country as fast as he can run. And yet he and the corporate war mongers continue to rail about how well we are doing. If this is going well I hate to see what not going well is. Here is an eye witness report of another Presidents experience in battle.

?Colonel Roosevelt, on horseback, broke from the woods behind the line of the Ninth, and finding its men lying in his way, shouted: 'If you don't wish to go forward, let my men pass, please.' The junior officers of the Ninth, with their Negroes, instantly sprang into line with the Rough Riders, and charged at the blue block-house on the right.

 

I speak of Roosevelt first because, with General Hawkins, who led Kent's division, he was, without doubt, the most conspicuous figure in the charge.?

 

Thank God we have a war time President. This is my last post on this thread. I created it because I didn?t want to bog down what I thought was an issue of safety on the set. For me this board has always been a haven in this insane world we live in. I need a venue to vent my concerns but this is not it.

Thanks

Bob

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Just wanted to point out that cars are by far the most deadly form of technology that people commonly use. From the U.S. National Vital Statistics Report of 2002, states that 43,354 people died from traffic accidents that year and is the number one cause of accidental death. That accounts for almost half of all accidental deaths. This report doesn't included related illnesses and deaths associated with the effects of pollution from cars on humans. One SUV driving one mile, in traffic, puts out more toxic chemicals then a cigarette smoker does in an entire lifetime of smoking. In the years, 1999 and 2003, traffic accidents were the number one cause of death for police officers.

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"Alack, I see our American system of education (BYU) has failed you miserably as well, to say nothing of the argumentative bore it has produced. C'est la vie!"

 

Alex,

 

Fine, I'll be the argumentative bore, since you're the pompous ass. I see you're the great gramarian who needs his own grammar corrected.

 

R,

gee, rich, it's spelled "grammarian." so that makes you a pompous ass, the great speller who needs his own spelling corrected, and still a misogynistic pig.

best,

ae

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And if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you. Obviously the education system in our country has failed when we have such brilliant keen insights as the war in Iraq is going well. Hello? Abu Ghraib? Hello? 2,500+ US dead. 100,000+ Iraqis dead. No WMDs. $87 billion. What world are you from? I question your intelligence and the intelligence of your friend. Or is this all just spin, put out by you on behalf of Karl Rove? Get out of my country!

 

Mike Welle

 

Thing is, the education system in America has failed. The war in Iraq is going relatively well, if you look past what the media is constantly showing. My best friend's brother just came back and said things are going great over there. The people causing trouble over there are NOT the average citizens...who by and large want democracy.

 

 

And if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you. Obviously the education system in our country has failed when we have such brilliant keen insights as the war in Iraq is going well. Hello? Abu Ghraib? Hello? 2,500+ US dead. 100,000+ Iraqis dead. No WMDs. $87 billion. What world are you from? I question your intelligence and the intelligence of your friend. Or is this all just spin, put out by you on behalf of Karl Rove? Get out of my country! Oh I forgot, its that damn liberal media with FOX news and Chris Matthews spouting out their liberal propaganda. What idiots! What fools!

 

Mike Welle

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The concept of gun control is such a divisive issue I wonder if it is really an appropriate subject for OFF TOPIC. OFF TOPIC is defined as Not exactly about cinematography, but still related directly to the film/video industry. I really wonder if this topic is heading in that direction. I love a passionate debate as much as the next guy. But, sometimes it?s best to just agree to disagree and move on.

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The concept of gun control is such a divisive issue I wonder if it is really an appropriate subject for OFF TOPIC. OFF TOPIC is defined as Not exactly about cinematography, but still related directly to the film/video industry. I really wonder if this topic is heading in that direction. I love a passionate debate as much as the next guy. But, sometimes it?s best to just agree to disagree and move on.

Hey, man...You meant well. I'll give you credit for that.

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"gee, rich, it's spelled "grammarian." so that makes you a pompous ass, the great speller who needs his own spelling corrected, and still a misogynistic pig.

best,

ae"

 

Alex,

 

I stand corrected, I am the pompous ass, you are just a plain old fashioned a**ho**.

 

R,

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