How specific should a DP be?

[Thom Stitt]

But if you're going to do the job you may as well try to take away as many positive things as you can from the experience.

 

But... then I couldn't be such a sarcastic wise-ass!

*kicks a puff of dirt*

 

(It's a good point nonetheless)

Edited August 13, 2006 by Thom S

[Hal Smith]

Whenever you do someone else's job you are being paid to learn something new. And often getting to play with toys way beyond your experience level.

 

My stepson went to work for the OKC Civic Center Music Hall as a part-time job in what amounted to an assistant grip position. Thanks to other employees taking vacation when major shows were moving in and running, not wanting to travel across town to another city theatre facility, promotions, etc. he ended up doing things way beyond his job description and getting to play with multi-million dollar facilities on his own. He's learned enough in about two years to now being considered for one of the best full-time theatre technical jobs in Oklahoma.

[Larry Fong]

Interesting thread. I can think of many analogies in other fields...CEO's of corporations, general contractors, restaurant owners, race car drivers, the president...

 

My neighbor is a fashion designer, but can also make a pattern AND sew the outfit...I doubt Hilfiger or Calvin Klein can do the same.

 

We all know there are those that got their break through family or friends or money or social position. I'm not in a position to judge but I tend to respect those in any field who have been in the trenches and paid their dues and have real talent.

 

Having said that, I can work a C-stand, know where the latch is on an HMI, and can load a mag...but in fifteen years, have only shot two features--both low budget indies that went straight to video!

[timHealy]

I agree that if you work in the trenches that you will be good at that craft. But if you work your way up to a DP through the camera dept you will be weak on lighting equipment and vice versa. That is what you have a gaffer, key grip, or a camera assistant for, to cover your ass in an area you are not an expert in while the DP concentrates on lighting.

 

So in a way, you are right that a DP is a "manager" of all thing the camera sees and affects. Even as far as what kind of colors may go into a costume or a set. You can even ask for the help of the production designer or set dressers to add or take away something that may be inappropriate (for whatever reason) or missing. Even though production design is not the DP's forte, he or she may have an opinion about something.

 

Also that is a great point who ever mentioned that a DP who is weak on lighting may be an opportunity for you to show your stuff. That creative input and experince may be a very valuable asset as your career progresses.

 

Best

 

Tim

Edited August 14, 2006 by heel_e

[Kenneth Kotowski]

I think a good DP, as well as a good anybody on set, should have a basic idea of how the entire process works. You should be aware of everyone's job and have a good idea of what they do, how they do, and how well it works for them and for the show.

 

From a technical standpoint the DP should always be doing his/her homework and learning the in's and out's of his/her craft. He/She should know how to achive what he/she needs to on set, this allows for better communication between the DP and the gaffer or the DP and the AC.

 

Everybody has a job to do on set, and the DP's job is to communicate effectivly to get the results that the production requires in order to keep the day moving along.

 

BTW I work mostly as an AC when I'm not DP'ing, but Lighting the set and knowing what my Gaffer is doing and learning all I can about how to manipulate the light is what really gets me excited about the work.

[timHealy]

I don't think anyone here is saying that DP's of any level shouldn't have at least a general knowledge of the whole process. Just by working in film for years one would gain a certain amount of knowledge and experience. If I may use David Mullin as an example: He is one who has an encyclopedic memory about film, filmstocks, film cameras, lab processes and newer video technologies and where the old and new cross.

 

What I am suggesting is that DP's don't need to know everything. Would you think less of David (or any other DP for that matter) if he did not know how to run or repair a 1400 amp generator, do a tie in, collimate a lens, drive a tractor trailer, design and sew a costume up, operate a man lift, or take apart a techno crane to get it into a tough spot?

 

A DP may know or be aware of these things, but he or she doesn't need to be the expert at them. A production hires the experts in each of those fields. That's is all I am trying to impress.

 

best

 

Tim

 

PS In reality, I wouldn't be surprised if David did know how to collimate a lens and do a tie it, and even if he did not know how to repair a generator, he probably does know how to turn one on. heheheh

[David Mullen ASC]

PS In reality, I wouldn't be surprised if David did know how to collimate a lens and do a tie it, and even if he did not know how to repair a generator, he probably does know how to turn one on. heheheh

 

Never even touched a generator -- truth is that electricity scares me a little. I have a healthy respect and leave it to the experts to handle. My dad was an electronics engineer and for some reason, I have a mental block from learning electronics too well, I don't know why.

 

There is a level of knowledge that you need, and then there is the level of knowledge that just comes from interest and enthusiasm (like mine for obsolete film technology), and then there are levels that go so deep that even I question the practical value. I'm on the ASC Technology Committee, mostly made up of associate members working at the top levels of engineering, post-production, etc. and half the stuff they argue about goes right over my head. But I try and absorb what I can because I never know what might prove useful, plus I and other cinematographers are there in the committee to provide our perspective as working cinematographers.

 

Like a lot of cinematographers, what I have is a broad general knowledge rather than being an expert in something specific -- I'll never know as much about data recording as Phil Rhodes for example. I just know a little more than some cinematographers about certain pet interests of mine, like the history of 3-strip Technicolor or Cinerama (and there are many people who know more than me about that.)

 

The important thing is not that you know everything but that you know how to find out what you need to know. Probably why I married a librarian...

[Andrew Wheeler]

I can relate to 2 things that people have posted in this topic. I recently worked on a smaller music video unpaid as a key grip. It was a 1 day shoot. There was a decent lighting package, HMI, Kino's etc and it seemed quite worth it to take the gig. Our first setup of the day took the DP way to long for the budget and time constraints and I noticed the director becoming visibly upset. I told the director don't worry i will go ahead and get the next shot lit and be ready to go in 15 minutes. Although i felt a little weird kinda going behind the DP's back something had to be done. So i teamed up with the BBE and asked if he was ready to do this. We got the shot ready and it was by far the best looking shot of the day so far. The director was very happy that this happened and just ended up taking me, the key grip to every next setup telling me what he was looking for. The whole day went this way and ultimately I know that me and the BBE saved the DP's butt. The sad part about it was me and the BBE were the ones not being paid and the gaffer and DP who seemed to be less talented (for lack of a better word) were being paid. Ultimately I want to be DPing but gripping was my first way into a film set. I have been sucking up knowledge from this website, books, movies, and sets over the last year or so. This circumstance ultimatley allowed me to put into action what ive been learning and i left the shoot 10 times more confident of my abilitles. So i can relate to working with a bad DP that does nothing and I can relate to certain jobs allowing you to play with toys beyond your abilities. Well, the director was happy with how things went and I was asked to go back on the reshoots as DP.

[Thom Stitt]

I think the best point being made here is that a DP should have a very good handle on the entire process - and it's an obvious rule of thumb that the more "trench" experience he has, the better he'll likely be assuming the role as Boss. But I absolutely agree with everyone here stating that a DP by no means requires an in-depth technical training like a union gaffer working on big films would.

 

The extreme, however, occurs, and it's a crying, crying shame. Anyone here who loves the craft of cinematography - would you ever even dream of leaving the lighting entirely up to your crew, based on an overly generalized "direction" by yourself? I think that's half the fun of being a cinematographer - you're a painter, and light is your medium. You should know the texture of your tools, the palette with which you will work throughout your career. It is a craft, a collaborative one, and I know many of the best DPs in the world wouldn't be able to do their job without equally amazing contributors on their lighting and camera crew. That's one of the best things about cinematography. Some DPs betray that collaboration and offset a pretty good balance that most workers have going. What I'm doing in this thread is trying to gauge what the proportion is. How many of these off-balance pseudo-DPs are out there getting paid 10 times more than the crew doing their jobs for them?

*furiously strokes beard in the process of extreme contemplation*

 

Well, the director was happy with how things went and I was asked to go back on the reshoots as DP.

 

Wow, that's an interesting turn of events. Good for you, I have to say you're pretty lucky it turned out that way. The film set tends to drip with egos, so that was a bit of a risky move. I admire you a bit, because I've found myself in the same situation, but I didn't take that step forward. It wasn't so much fear of an ego overshadowing my own, more of a... laziness.

 

Oooh that's what it was... they had these tasty fruit salads at crafty...

so tasty...

[Kevin Zanit]

Interesting thread. I can think of many analogies in other fields...CEO's of corporations, general contractors, restaurant owners, race car drivers, the president...

 

My neighbor is a fashion designer, but can also make a pattern AND sew the outfit...I doubt Hilfiger or Calvin Klein can do the same.

 

We all know there are those that got their break through family or friends or money or social position. I'm not in a position to judge but I tend to respect those in any field who have been in the trenches and paid their dues and have real talent.

 

Having said that, I can work a C-stand, know where the latch is on an HMI, and can load a mag...but in fifteen years, have only shot two features--both low budget indies that went straight to video!

 

Larry, you?re a bit modest ;) , you also have shot several good looking TV series (getting you an ASC award nomination I think), so you seem to be doing okay for yourself (I really liked how the episodes of Lost you shot looked).

 

That said, I agree with you - Many crew members will have more respect for the DP if they know that they have been there, and can relate to the difficult things you are often asking of them.

 

Kevin Zanit

[Brad Grimmett]

I think the best point being made here is that a DP should have a very good handle on the entire process - What I'm doing in this thread is trying to gauge what the proportion is. How many of these off-balance pseudo-DPs are out there getting paid 10 times more than the crew doing their jobs for them?

And my question to you would be.....Does it really matter? People get lucky and nepotism exists, so there are always going to be people around that aren't quite qualified for the job they're doing. But does it really make a difference? You can't change it.....

I know it can be frustrating. I've had many similar experiences over the years, but I try to just do my best and not worry about it. I'm MUCH better at it now than I used to be, but still far from perfect. But working with those types of people has really informed me about how to act and react on set. I've learned from other people's mistakes in many instances. Acting like a professional in even the toughest of situations makes you look great to everyone around you. You're not the only one that will notice if your boss is incompetent, but they'll also notice if you complain about it. Keeping your cool on jobs like this is a real skill, and one to be admired.

Regarding the post about the Key Grip going behind the DP's back. Be careful about this. I know your intentions were good, but it's un-professional, and most of the time will cause bigger problems than the ones that already existed. Even if you did get a job out of it.....the end's don't justify the means.

[Andrew Wheeler]

Since I dont post to often, I suppose I want to clear up my actions so I'm not the guy who "goes behind people's backs" on a film set. I did feel weird about basically stepping into the role of DP for a day and I want to say that almost every set would not be the place for something like this. In this case it was not to risky in that the director was in trouble because of the snails pace of production on a 1 day shoot "he was also having other issues with the DP" , and the DP being pretty inexperienced as far as working on a a shoot with a decent crew at his disposal. He was mostly unaware of what peoples jobs and roles were that he assumed I was doing what I was supposed to be doing anyways. He just thought I was a good key grip. I have no doubts in my mind that he will be using some of the shots for his reel and completely thinking that he was responsible for the lighting. Also, and I think it matters a little bit, it was not a low budget shoot and not LA or NYC. I hope you guys understand.

 

 

I need to fix that last sentence typo to, it was a low budget shoot.

[Mario C. Jackson]

I am currently taking the electric route to becoming a dp, although I still shoot alot myself. Anyway I believe a dp should be a great leader on set. To me that is the number one priority. Second he/ she needs to trust their crew that they have. A dp should let the gaffer be a gaffer and let his key grip be a key grip. I have seen many dp's try to do everyones job on set and it usually pisses off the crew. When ever I am dping I expect my gaffer to know and understand lighting very well, I expect my key grip to know his craft the exact same way and the same goes to the 1st AC. I just believe a dp should have an idea of what he wants and then his team does whatever thay can to make it happen.

Hope this helps

Mario C. Jackson

[Brad Grimmett]

Andrew,

I wasn't trying to indict you for your actions, just pointing out that those types of situations can end badly. Obviously, you know best what the situation was, and you reacted how you thought you should. There are certainly exceptions to the rule.

[Guest jkc123]

Does one usually let a DP set up the shots after the blocking & coverage has been figured out or is that the job of the director?

[David Mullen ASC]

Does one usually let a DP set up the shots after the blocking & coverage has been figured out or is that the job of the director?

 

Once the coverage has been figured out, what's left to do is the physical setting-up of the camera and lights -- usually the director steps off-set for that stuff because the camera is just going where they decided it is going. He or she might get called back if there is a problem with the camera set-up and it needs to be modified.

 

Once the set-up is complete, the director will come back to approve or change it before the actors are brought in.

[Adam White]

I imagine the like of Kubrick probably didnt leave for too long. Are there any other examples of directors who really get stuck in with the setting up of shots? If-you-like, a crew-minded director?

[Chad Stockfleth]

I have DP'd shoots where the crew is vastly more skilled then me at rigging and building of things which is in my opinion how it should be. In those situations I try to explain how I think things should look as I'm usually more familiar with the material as a whole and then let them do their job. I'm still pretty young (26) and I'm sure guys 15-20 years my senior don't really appreciate being bossed around by a punk. ;-) There are some fantastic gaffers and grips in the area and I am not going to tell them how to do their job. I will tell them light direction and colors, explain framing and things of that nature but micro-management is not my forte.

 

That said, on shoots where my crew has been less experienced, I have had to take a more hands on approach and be VERY specific about what to use and where to use it. Ultimately you have to get the job done, but it makes it much better when you are left to focus on aesthetic issues as opposed to how to run a cable or how to position a frame of gel.

[timHealy]

Does one usually let a DP set up the shots after the blocking & coverage has been figured out or is that the job of the director?

 

The DP and director usually figure out the blocking together along with the actors (and with perhaps some help from the ad's and maybe a producer once in a while.)

 

Best

 

Tim

[Adam Frisch FSF]

I work with a directing duo that almost always operates the camera. I have no problem whatsoever with that. In fact, I relish it since it means I can kick back and relax a bit. :D

[Michael Morlan]

Joining this thread late:

 

David, I had to laugh at your "married a librarian" comment. I've always considered the two most important classes I attended in primary school were typing and library skills. They have been my constant companions over the years.

 

I’ve always felt the DP and gaffer are two parts of a whole. When paired well, they can complement each other effectively and achieve grand things within tight deadlines and budgets.

 

I work (meaning I get paid) as a gaffer, camera op, and DP. It really helps me to know the specifics of lighting tools and the kinetics of camera work to be effective in my creative role. That way I can get close to my goal if not right on the money every time. Yes, I have called for an instrument or diffusion change on occasion. But then, gaffers who know me (and I do this for DP’s as a gaffer) will have staged the gear that I commonly call for. It’s a bit of extra work to stage anticipated grip but it smoothes the way when we’re under the gun.

 

At the same time, as I advance in my own career, I encounter new situations for which I have no personal experience. It is then that I rely on my leadership skills to solicit the advice of the experts I've surrounded myself with.

 

I lack respect for DP's who have no knowledge of the craft of lighting and use generalized, "artistic" verbiage to communicate their desires, depending on the gaffer to fulfill his/her vague "vision." Worse, are DP’s I’ve worked with who merely tell me where they are going to shoot from and mood they wish to achieve and walk away. Would a traditional oil painter be capable of rendering an image without a specific understanding of the mixing of pigments and use of brushes? For shame.

 

My ideal dialogue with a trusted gaffer-partner might go something like this:

 

DP: “Let’s motive an out-of-frame window here. I need an F4.0 key on her through an 8x8 artificial silk about fifteen feet away. Be ready with some of my usual bounce for fill or separation on her blond hair. I’m going to place her at left of frame so give me an F2.8 at the top-left of the background, falling off to an F1.0 at the lower-left. Add a slash of my party red up that column. You think a 4K HMI for the key is enough?”

 

Gaffer: “Well, we’re shooting the T500 so that key light should do. If you want some room to make adjustments, I might go with a bigger instrument. Do you want some stark shadows on the background or should I soften them some?”

 

DP: “Perhaps we should add a 4x4 of 1/2 diffusion in front of that light. Make sure we don’t lose that cherry-wood cabinet in the shadows.”

 

etc.

[timHealy]

I lack respect for DP's who have no knowledge of the craft of lighting and use generalized, "artistic" verbiage to communicate their desires, depending on the gaffer to fulfill his/her vague "vision." Worse, are DP?s I?ve worked with who merely tell me where they are going to shoot from and mood they wish to achieve and walk away. Would a traditional oil painter be capable of rendering an image without a specific understanding of the mixing of pigments and use of brushes? For shame.

 

I think you are being too hard on DP's who may not know or care, what light you specifically use. As long as what your doing looks great through the lens. A DP can keep a gaffer engaged by saying he wants a soft bounce here or I need something through a frame there and let the gaffer decide what lights they have available on the job or on the set as opposed to a particular light that may be down the street on a truck and it will take some time to get. A DP doesn't need to know everything. Through experience a DP with a none electrical background will eventually learn everything he or she needs to know. But if you walked on a set a found Vilmos Zigmond asking a gaffer for a large soft bounce would you not respect him?

 

Best

 

Tim

[Hal Smith]

I lack respect for DP's who have no knowledge of the craft of lighting and use generalized, "artistic" verbiage to communicate their desires, depending on the gaffer to fulfill his/her vague "vision." Worse, are DP?s I?ve worked with who merely tell me where they are going to shoot from and mood they wish to achieve and walk away. Would a traditional oil painter be capable of rendering an image without a specific understanding of the mixing of pigments and use of brushes? For shame.

I work for a TV Director (Regional Emmy winner - knows his craft) onstage as his Lighting Designer from time to time who uses descriptive lanquage to communicate rather than technical language like "I want a Source Four key at 45 degrees up and slightly stage left". I find it very easy to work with him, he's clear in expressing himself but doesn't want to design the lighting, he wants my creative input.

 

My understanding of live and live-to-tape TV is that the Director is the one literally "calling the shots" (I've been onset during live TV but never had a production responsibility). Just how different are the film and TV worlds in who is responsible for the "look" of a show? Obviously in live TV the tasks of a film DoP are divvyed up to different production members but what is the usual structure?

[Michael Morlan]

Hal & Tim,

 

I agree a DP doesn't need to know everything about the gaffer's craft but I don't think I'm being hard on DP's who lack any knowledge of the tools of lighting. You both described a scenario with a DP/gaffer duo that have probably worked together for awhile and are now able to communicate with shorthand dialogue - like the fictional dialogue I presented. I can't speak for the DP's you mention but my first discussions with a gaffer would be about "coming to terms." What do we mean when we say "soft wrap-around on her face?" That would be discussed in specific terms of instruments for varying set conditions so we knew what I meant when I called for that setup. The same goes when I am a gaffer. I want to have those discussions with my DP so I understand his/her aesthetic and can deliver on the technical side.