Help me pic a cam

[Max Lundberg]

I've seen comparisons where a camera with a registration pin and a horrible lens produced better images than a camera with no registration pin and a top-notch lens.

A useless statement.

[Tim Carroll]

I've seen comparisons where a camera with a registration pin and a horrible lens produced better images than a camera with no registration pin and a top-notch lens.

 

Bernie,

 

Care to elaborate on this. I am a huge fan of registration pins on motion picture cameras, especially since I service ARRI's which all contain them. And I do think you get a steadier image with the registration pin. But I think you may be overstating the case here a bit.

 

I've seen Bolex footage with a nice switar lens look very nice, especially for sections of the footage. I have also seen sections of Bolex footage where there was weave and bad registration. Sometimes from the same camera. But I would not say that just because a camera did not have a registration pin, you could not get good images from it.

 

-Tim

[Josh Hill]

I'll concur with the CP16R comment. Someone said you would be out of luck if any camera in your price range were to break -- but they neglect to mention two wonderful service centers for the CP in America (Visual Products and Whitehouse AV). The people there are honest and reliable and can have your camera up and running (from nearly any condition) into a perfect machine in no time.

 

CPs, like the BL, are tanks. They're going to be (probably) older than you are, and they do have their problems (which are easily eliminated and some of them you can fix yourself with only some parts ordered from one of the above mentioned places).

 

You can also get a hard-front PL mount on your CP, a video tap (if it has the tap door on top), and a S16 conversion. I've shot with mine and the images produced were better than expected, even with the Angenieux 10-150 lens (which wasn't as crappy as people made it out to be, completely watchable and interesting). Definitely get the CP16R and not the A, though, as the A has a dogleg viewfinder (non-reflecx) which will completely destroy your chances of getting new lenses. The R is a reflex camera and you can put any lens on the camera that will fit the mount (or the replacement mount if you get one).

[Bernie O'Doherty]

Tim,

 

When I worked for Mobius in New York, we did a comparison test between an Arri 2C and an Arri BL4. The 2C had the better lens. Without going into all the technical details, I checked both cameras thoroughly for claw travel, penetration, and lateral stability. All were fine. I calibrated and collimated lenses and cameras. We ran 50' at 24 fps on each camera and for the last 50' jumped to 48 fps. The results obviously showed that the camera with the top-notch lens (i.e., the 2C) did not have the same resolution as the BL4 with the 30-year-old uncoated lens. What it told me was that even though instability is barely visible, it does have quite an effect on overall image resolution.

 

Of course you can get good registration with the Bolex. However, when the film isn't up to spec, which as you know can happen for a bunch of reasons, the Bolex will struggle with stability where a camera with a registration pin would not. Also, the frame line in the 2C was breathing quite a bit. The BL4's frame line was rock steady.

 

Sometimes on an incorrectly adjusted NPR (and most tend to be), the registration pin does absolutely nothing since it does not touch against the top of the perforation and hold it when the film is pulled down. A lot of owners complain about image instability when the thing that will make all the difference is getting the registration pin to work.

 

Forgive me for not being clear in my original post. I hope I've explained things a little better here.

 

Cheers,

Bernie

[Sam Wells]

The S delivers steady images through thick & thin.

 

I'm currently comping succesive takes with footage taken with mine, no visible error in HD transfer.

 

The Bolex can be pretty close but requires care and feeding.

 

I like the Bolex for other reasons, single frames incl time exposures, shutter angle choices etc, I think of it like a poor person's 435ES.

 

-Sam

[Lav Bodnaruk]

Arri BL is a good camera....on a tripod. Hand-held it's like holding a pig by the posterior, all front-heavy.

The Eclair ACL is a lighter camera and just as stable as the BL. It's fairly quiet, too, and easier to convert to Super 16 than the BL.

 

here is my 2 cents on the topic here, 'help me pic a cam' - don?t be afraid of 16mm BL.

 

I have used it to shoot in collage and own one now. I have all the blimp housings for it which makes a great deal of difference as it can be used with primes now, easily changed over (really no hassle) and no skin of my nose. (Dont laugh at the site, it was made ages ago and the pics look pathetic) but students to come to rent.... http://www.lavproductions.com/cameraprice.html

 

It is not that loud when serviced well, and oiled up properly - which you get to learn how to do when you own one. the magazines are not hard to load... the loop is not hard to get right in the tent, as there is a mark on the mag to where you should go to... I am not saying it is easier then say SRs, cause it isn?t, but it is not really complicated as sometimes people like to over exaggerate.

 

further, its heavy and bulky, but not as much if you take that zoom lens off and that zoom lens blimp. in other words, with a prime lens and prime blimp it isnt scary heavy, i even put it on my Glidecam v20 and have really steady shots - you wouldn?t think of shooting steadicam with bl now would you? you can get a special magazine for steadicam work too, so not to screw up your balance...(im not actually advising on shooting steadicam with BL, rent an SR for that, but just saying... its all doable on student budgets and i have seen it done)

 

for handheld work, a swan neck viewfinder is great. people are much against hand held work with this camera, but when i was shootng heavy with my unit, i had it down to such perfection, i used to prefer it to woring with anything else... i guess it is a matter of gettign used to.

 

I even built a VIDEO TAP on my camera, which attaches onto the viewfinder (for steadicam/crane work). you can get one put in proffessionaly at Aranda Films, which they do through the door;

 

get one with really good crystal sync, best would be to get Tobin -which referes back to the post from someone before me, Cinama Techic will be able to answer all the questions you have. They also have their own recommendation for this camera here, not very positive, but very realistic

http://www.cinematechnic.com/resources/arri_16bl.html

 

you can get a jensen 505 crystal sync unit, which i got 2 of, or even a Minilock which is England made (i also own one and they all do the trick)

 

Conversion to super 16mm is possible, although i have never really seen one that is done very well. I have heard that http://www.arandafilm.com.au/ Aranda Film do it, but like i said, i am not able to confirm. I do know that Aranda Film is a wonderful company and that they are very much to be trusted to... so whatever they say, i would go for...

 

lastly, ebay may not be your best option for this camera, as you should be able to hold it in your hand, listen to it... maybe see some footage that was shoot with it. I contemplated selling mine number of times, but having been collecting parts for it for years now, i am pretty sure i got it in a tip top collectors condition to sell away :D

 

anyways, keep looking, collect more money and buy an SR, BUT if you are in a rush right now, BL is NOT a bad choice! you will learn heaps, you will shoot heaps, and no doubt it is a camera that will PAY IT SELF OFF quickly if you are lucky to get it for about 2K USD. (which i would never sell mine for)

 

Best of luck

[Max Lundberg]

When I worked for Mobius in New York, we did a comparison test between an Arri 2C and an Arri BL4. The 2C had the better lens. Without going into all the technical details, I checked both cameras thoroughly for claw travel, penetration, and lateral stability. All were fine. I calibrated and collimated lenses and cameras. We ran 50' at 24 fps on each camera and for the last 50' jumped to 48 fps. The results obviously showed that the camera with the top-notch lens (i.e., the 2C) did not have the same resolution as the BL4 with the 30-year-old uncoated lens. What it told me was that even though instability is barely visible, it does have quite an effect on overall image resolution.

 

Of course you can get good registration with the Bolex. However, when the film isn't up to spec, which as you know can happen for a bunch of reasons, the Bolex will struggle with stability where a camera with a registration pin would not. Also, the frame line in the 2C was breathing quite a bit. The BL4's frame line was rock steady.

What do you mean by same resolution? How did you measure this?

A horrible lens? A top-notch lens? What are these?

The lens makes the image, not the camera. A registration pin is not going to make a poor lens any better than it is.

 

Did you shoot tests with both lenses on both cameras?

How can you be sure that the difference was just because of a registarion pin?

Are these cameras totally identical except one has a registration pin? (remember that the 2C was introduced in 1964 and the BL4 in 1986.) Actually I think the BL4 has two registration pins.

I don't think it's normal for the 2C that the frame line is breathing quite a bit. But again "quite a bit" is not very precise term. And every camera is unique.

Edited August 21, 2006 by Max Lundberg

[Robert Glenn]

What do you mean by same resolution? How did you measure this?

A horrible lens? A top-notch lens? What are these?

The lens makes the image, not the camera. A registration pin is not going to make a poor lens any better than it is.

 

Did you shoot tests with both lenses on both cameras?

How can you be sure that the difference was just because of a registarion pin?

Are these cameras totally identical except one has a registration pin? (remember that the 2C was introduced in 1964 and the BL4 in 1986.) Actually I think the BL4 has two registration pins.

I don't think it's normal for the 2C that the frame line is breathing quite a bit. But again "quite a bit" is not very precise term. And every camera is unique.

he's one of the best camera techs in USA..... I'm sure he knows what he's talking about :blink:

[Max Lundberg]

he's one of the best camera techs in USA..... I'm sure he knows what he's talking about :blink:

If that's good enough for you. But for me, if someone is making a statement without proper explanation, I don't buy it. No matter who he is.

 

I'm sure the BL4 will give better registration than the 2C, but I don't think these cameras are in the same line anyway.

What I don't buy is that a bad lens will give better images than a good lens just because of a registration pin.

[Hans Engstrom]

keep looking, collect more money and buy an SR, BUT if you are in a rush right now, BL is NOT a bad choice! you will learn heaps, you will shoot heaps, and no doubt it is a camera that will PAY IT SELF OFF quickly if you are lucky to get it for about 2K USD. (which i would never sell mine for)

 

Don´t just look at Arriflex cameras. They are great cameras and I used to own a 16BL and was planning to buy a S16 SR2 but instead I bought a Aaton LTR. Aatons are much cheaper and a LTR54 can be had for half of what a S16 SR would cost you. The 16BL is a nice camera but you´ll feel limited by it, that I can guarantee. First of all the need of using blimped lenses is the biggest drawback. Second, buying it and converting it to S16 would cost more than buying a LTR that b.t.w. is a much nicer camera. However the loading of the 16BL mags is not hard at all, kind of the same as loading the 435 mags.

 

I usually advise against buying sync regular 16mm cameras as I belive that they are to expensive for what you get and there really isn´t any way to make any money with them. If you are going to get a regular 16mm camera then get a cheap MOS camera that wont loose any value so that you will get your money back when/if you sell it. If you want a sync camera then save up and get a s16 camera that will pay for itself. I recommend that you take a look at a Aaton LTR54, it´s a nice camera that is not extremely expensive and can be used as a B camera on bigger s16 shoots and will do very fine as A camera on shorts and musicvideos. If you want to go for a Arri I suggest that you go for a SR2 s16, but they are expensive cameras even if they have come down a bit the last years.

 

If you´re still going to buy a regular 16mm camera the 16BL is a reliable camera and except for the blimped lenses It´s really good. The best thing to do if you get a 16BL is to find either a newer multicoated Angenieux 12-120 or a Zeiss T* 10-100 that will fit in the zoomblimp.

[Lav Bodnaruk]

Don´t just look at Arriflex cameras. They are great cameras and I used to own a 16BL and was planning to buy a S16 SR2 but instead I bought a Aaton LTR. Aatons are much cheaper and a LTR54 can be had for half of what a S16 SR would cost you.

 

.....

 

If you´re still going to buy a regular 16mm camera the 16BL is a reliable camera and except for the blimped lenses It´s really good. The best thing to do if you get a 16BL is to find either a newer multicoated Angenieux 12-120 or a Zeiss T* 10-100 that will fit in the zoomblimp.

 

Yap, I agree with that... I was on about my BL for so long that i missed the chance to mention Aatons. It would have surely turned my post into a novel :blink: (length wise).

 

Back to original post though, I think $2K budget was in question, and i am not sure he will be able to really get the LTR54 for that... hence the crazy BL recommendations;

 

Inspired by this post I took a BL to my class today. It was a beginners level Avid, and I thought it would interest them to see it. Whilst they were intrigued to hear how film cameras operated, they sure did give me the funny look when I pulled it out of its case - as if to say "what is that junk"?!

 

Sure, these were just editing students (adult classes), but I predict that would be a reaction of some clients too... perhaps this is one of the draw backs Hans mentioned?

[Brian Drysdale]

Ah well, the state of the art video cameras constructed the same year as your BL are now junk. There's a good chance that the BL could still be working when the current digital cameras are junk (5 years time?). The BL being carefully upgraded by Kodak and Fuji.

[Guest stroxell82]

I think I'm gonna go with an Arri S.

[Tim Carroll]

I think I'm gonna go with an Arri S.

 

Good choice.

 

-Tim

[Lav Bodnaruk]

Good choice.

 

-Tim

 

 

hehe no surprise there Tim :D

[Marty Hamrick]

Thanks for all the replies.I'm leaning toward the bolex h16 it seems very versatile.I seen this auction on ebay for a Bolex H16 Reflex w/18-86mm f/2 Vario Switar Zoom Lens they want 1,029 for it.What do you guys/gals think?

 

You getting any extra motors with that?Which model is it?Rex 4?Rex 5?I've seen them cheaper.The 18-68 is a good general lens,but you're gonna need a good wide angle ( a 10mm at least) and some extra motors.You'll probably want one good sync motor for scratch tracks.

 

I've seen the Arri S go for under 2K.I love Bolexes,have shot some great footage with them.I wouldn't worry so much about the pin registration as most models have a secondary trailing claw that does much of the job a restration pin does.Yet the advantage of the ArriS is in the 400 foot mags.They're metal as opposed to the Bolex plastic and the take up motor is much better than the cheaper take up motors on Bolex mags.Also,if it's an advantage to you,the ArriS can run in reverse.

[dr_gonzo]

Thanks for all the replies.I'm leaning toward the bolex h16 it seems very versatile.I seen this auction on ebay for a Bolex H16 Reflex w/18-86mm f/2 Vario Switar Zoom Lens they want 1,029 for it.What do you guys/gals think?

 

I love the Bolex, its like a swiss watch...but if you want to do longer takes you would have to find a motorized bolex as the spring version will only run for about 22 seconds at full crank.

 

I would go with the arri s...you could go out all day hammer nails with it, bludgeon someone to death, and then shoot a film without harming the camera at all. Its invulnerable to conventional weapons...you can get some great image results. And for a little bit of an added cost grab the 400 ft mag.

 

But the camera is loud as all hell and cannot possibly be used for sound due to that and the lack of a perfect constant frame rate.

[Tim Carroll]

But the camera is loud as all hell and cannot possibly be used for sound due to that and the lack of a perfect constant frame rate.

 

Don't be so sure. . .

[dr_gonzo]

Don't be so sure. . .

 

Every ARRIS i've used has fluctuated btw 24-26 frames while the motor was running. and unless I was shooting on a 300mm lens and had the camera piled under sound blankets I doubt I would even attempt to use this for sound work. Its not worth the trouble.

 

But for MOS...great camera.

[Tim Carroll]

Every ARRIS i've used has fluctuated btw 24-26 frames while the motor was running. and unless I was shooting on a 300mm lens and had the camera piled under sound blankets I doubt I would even attempt to use this for sound work. Its not worth the trouble.

 

But for MOS...great camera.

 

The Tobin crystal sync motor has solved the first problem you refer to, and I am currently working on the second issue.

 

To be continued . . .

 

-Tim

[Lav Bodnaruk]

The Tobin crystal sync motor has solved the first problem you refer to, and I am currently working on the second issue.

 

To be continued . . .

 

-Tim

 

Hey Tim, do you care to elaborate on your work? I am just asking out of pure interest mate. I am well aware of the Tobin crystal sync as i owned one with a BL previously. I also know that barneys can be great help in keeping the noise down but wouldnt mind hearing any other ideas you had about how to get around this...

 

cheers bud

[Tim Carroll]

Hey Tim, do you care to elaborate on your work? I am just asking out of pure interest mate. I am well aware of the Tobin crystal sync as i owned one with a BL previously. I also know that barneys can be great help in keeping the noise down but wouldnt mind hearing any other ideas you had about how to get around this...

 

cheers bud

 

Lav,

 

Right now all I am willing to say is that I am working with someone on the sound issues with the camera. Maybe we will solve them, maybe not. We will see . . .

 

-Tim

[Lav Bodnaruk]

Cool Tim

best of luck mate

:D

[Richardson Leao]

Hi, in my opinion, the best value for money you would get is a kinor 16CX-2m. I bought one in ebay for 450USD (+170USD shipping), send the motor to Ukraine to be modified to multi-speed for another 150EUR. For my usage, the noise level of the camera is quite low and I don't really need hard sync, so I use the original pilot signal from the camera and a laptop to record sound. You can have the kinor also modified with a crystal sinc:

 

http://www.geocities.com/russiancamera/16m...kinor-motor.htm

 

The guy that modified my camera is very nice to deal with (Olexandr) and I am sure many people in this forum had the chance to do some pleasant business w/ him, he also made the website above and you can find his email there. He can also find sellers for this camera if you can't find one in ebay (maybe buying through him would save you some money as the motor can be modified before sending it to you and the camera can also be serviced prior shiping).

[Hans Engstrom]

S16 ACL

Here is what looks to be a good deal if someone is looking for a s16 camera. Please note that I don´t know the person selling it and I have not inspected the camera.