looking to buy a 16mm camera

Olex Kalynychenko · October 17, 2006

You can easily check these things from the internet, you know.
read the description.

Thank you very much for picture and price list.

Yes, I see hole of registration pin, i see of clamping plate from side of film on film gate, and see information about " pin registered movement " at description of camera.

My opinion about NPR camera rise too much.

The film gate of NPR camera have short film leading and The film leading have position from lower part of film gate .

If i understand correct, the film channel have a fixed, base thrust plate from left side and clamping plate from right side.

Kinor have base thrust plate from right side, from side of transport pin and have clamping plate from left side, the reversal side of perforation on film.

This is picture of film channel of Kinor-16 camera.

The film magazine have additional film leading on top ?

Will be better, if the film leading had long size on all distance of film channel.

The film channel with short film leading can have a some pulsation removal at horizontal line, because, the 16 mm film have transport pin from one side only.

The film magazine have additional film leading on top ?

Will be better, if the film leading had long size on all distance of film channel.

The film channel with short film leading can have a some removal pulsation at horizontal line, because, the 16 mm film have transport pin from one side only.

The good idea, to set transport pin on middle of film leading.

The other idea, i think, the motor connection at underbody not optimal and turret can be not better side too.

The direct rotation of mirror disk good idea ( similar of Arri 2C ), have less noisy, but, can have a some uncomfortable position of motor.

The next generation of camera design - use a direct rotation of mirror disk, but, the mirror disk and motor to set from side of camera ( similar of kInor-35H, Kinor-35R )

I know not all details of design of turret. The turret have mechanism of to press of lens to body after turn of turret ? The similar mechanism i see on professional 35 mm cine cameras only. ( Era-2 COS ).

Super 16 modification of film gate show good too.

I hope, the camera have re-centered optical axis of lens mount and ground glass too.

Tomas Stacewicz · October 17, 2006

On future, Kinor can have crystal sync motor with speed synthesizer with steps of 1 fps, 0.1 fps, 0.01 fps, digital film counter, digital remote control and other electronics possibilities.

That would be great! Are you planning to do these upgrades yourself in the future? That would be wonderful news!

Olex Kalynychenko · October 18, 2006

That would be great! Are you planning to do these upgrades yourself in the future? That would be wonderful news!

Yes, I hope propose of new versions of modifications of electrical motors of Kinor-16 and Konvas cameras on future.

We design of new electronics modules for this motors.

I hope to inform of users of Kinor-16 and Konvas cameras about new versions of motors on forum too.

Yes, I will do this modifications and You can order.

This is new microprocessor controllers can be set on other cine cameras.

The microprocessor controller have optical incoder and optical encoder can be set on axis of any motor.

But, the motor must have good electrical and mechanical characteristics for electronic PWM control.

The rheostat motors with two winding ( drive winding and armature winding ) not good for electronics speed control systems because have complex transfer function of control , big inertia and big currents.

Zamir Merali · October 19, 2006

Hey guys lots of good advice in this thread. I just lost a bidding war on an arriflex 16s. The price went way to high for me. I have two more cameras i am interested in now . Could you take a look and recomend one.

Thanks

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Russian-movie-camera-16...1QQcmdZViewItem

and

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Paillard-Bolex-H16-Refl...1QQcmdZViewItem

Annie Wengenroth · October 20, 2006

Don't get one of those Russian cameras. If you want a good "first camera", get a Bolex, but make sure you get it serviced and thoroughly checked out if you're going the ebay route. (This goes for any camera!) The reason I advise against the Russian cameras is because I don't know anybody who will work on them but there are still a few people in the states and elsewhere who will fix Bolexes.

I used to own a Bolex and traded it plus cash for a 16S. I was very happy with each of them. Then the 16S got stolen and because I was so depressed about it, I decided to buy something with the insurance money that would be completely replacable and become an ancient relic before I turn 30. So I bought a 12" Powerbook G4. (In all seriousness, as much as I wanted another camera, I didn't need one as much as I needed a computer, and I move around too much to use a desktop PC...!) Ah, it breaks the heart.

At any rate, my point is that the 16S is built like a tank but will generally run you more money; however, you might have better luck finding accessories for it and if you drop it down the stairs, it might be okay, whereas the Bolex would probably implode into thousands of Swiss clockwork pieces. On the other hand, you can take a Bolex anywhere (I took mine to Maine where we had no electricity and shot some stuff, it was great!) and usually you can buy them as full packages...you can also get creative with souping them up...I've seen some motors by Tobin that are very good, I saw a Rex-5 converted to super16, I've seen all kinds of crazy lens mount adaptations..it's pretty fun stuff. I feel like I had this conversation at least 3 times before so I'll save the rest for later. Good luck to all the aspiring camera-owners out there. Who knows, maybe I'll buy a junker on ebay and start shooting again!

Tomas Stacewicz · October 20, 2006

The reason I advise against the Russian cameras is because I don't know anybody who will work on them

Here are some examples (mosty European):

http://www.slowmotioninc.com/index.html (US) These guys may service or repair your camera or even do upgrades to Super16, PL-mounts and crystal sync electronics.

http://www.lesbosher.co.uk/ (UK) Les Bosher does service and repair, and furthermore offers a upgrade to Super16 and PL-mount.

http://www.solidentertainment.se/ (Sweden) Anders Banke does service but his speciality is electronic upgrades to crystal sync, digital footage counter, remote control, etc. etc. I beleive he also can do a videoassist solution for your camera.

http://www.geocities.com/russiancamera/ (Ukraine) Olexandr Kalynychenko is a very serviceminded fellow that does service, repair and an upgrade of the electronics to crystal sync.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Tomas Stacewicz

Olex Kalynychenko · October 20, 2006

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Russian-movie-camera-16...1QQcmdZViewItem
and

This is not Kinor-16 SX-2M camera, this is russian 16 SP camera.

Kinor-16 SX-2M and 16SP two difference cameras not mix this cameras.

16SP camera have turret for 3 lenses with lens mount similar of Krasnogorsk-1, Krasnogrosk-2, Krasnogors-3 bayonet mount. This is lens mount not compatible with Kinor-16 lens mount.

16SP have transport mechanism with one transport pin.

The film magazines 30 m and 60 m . The 60 m film magazine can load 90 m of film maximum, not 120 m.

Electrical motor - rheostat control motor. This is type of motor can not be modify on crystal sync motor.

The viewfinder fixed and not possible charge position of viewfinder.

The camera have variable angle of shutter disk.

Oron Cohen · October 20, 2006

hey olex,

I just was looking at ebay an see this camera : http://cgi.ebay.com/KINOR-16mm-Movie-Camer...tem130038426038

(dont know way the link is so long), and I see that you post a qustion in this sell:

"Hi I'm Olexandr Kalynychenko (you know not who Olex ).I modify of this motor on multi speed version for Chris Kelly from LA, CA. If your buyers will need addiitional devices 9 battery, charger ) yu can ask me. They can order of full service of camera at me too.".

my question is if this is the kinor-16 SX-2M that you talk about?(sorry for the ignorance)

I have to say I have learnd allot from your post on Russian cameras and its very intesting also because I am mostly use the arri cameras like the ST/BL/SR2.

so thanks you anyway!

Olex Kalynychenko · October 20, 2006

hey olex,
I just was looking at ebay an see this camera : http://cgi.ebay.com/KINOR-16mm-Movie-Camer...tem130038426038

(dont know way the link is so long), and I see that you post a qustion in this sell:

my question is if this is the kinor-16 SX-2M that you talk about?(sorry for the ignorance)

I have to say I have learnd allot from your post on Russian cameras and its very intesting also because I am mostly use the arri cameras like the ST/BL/SR2.

so thanks you anyway!

Will be better, if you send me your questions on my direct e-mail olex@a-teleport.com.

If anybody need technical consultations about russian 16 mm and 35 mm cine cameras can send questions to me.

Yes, This is camera have motor with my modification. This is modification of 29EPSS motor on multi speed motor. The motor have original analog electronics of speed stabilization with 2.5 %.

This not crystal sync modification, but, the electronics have Pilot Signal generator and can be modify on crystal sync version at any time.

I modified of motor only from this set of camera.

Zamir Merali · October 23, 2006

Is it possible to get an arriflex 16 for less than 600 dollars? I know that there would be no 400 foot mag or lenses with it but every time i find one on ebay it goes up to over 1000 in the last couple minutes. I just want to know if il ever find one or if i should just go with a bolex. Thanks.

Tim Carroll · October 23, 2006

If you have a total of $600 to spend, I would probably go with the Bolex. It is not going to be nearly as nice of a camera, won't have as good of lenses available for it, or other accessories like follow focus, matte box and the like which are much more available for the Arriflex because it was at one time a professional 16mm camera. The Bolex is not built as well, so won't give you the years of service you would get from the Arriflex. But you are going to have a tough time getting an Arriflex 16S set up for $600.

The best case scenario would be to buy an Arriflex 16S, have it overhauled, and get a nice little group of primes or a single zoom like the Zeiss 10-100 T3 or the Angenieux 12-120 T2.2. Even without the 400 ft magazines, that camera will create some great images for you. To see some examples, go to:

Clips shot with an Arriflex 16S

and click on any of the different lenses listed there. That will show you what picture quality the camera is capable of. But you can't really get a set up like that for under $600.

-Tim

Rik Andino · October 24, 2006

Is it possible to get an arriflex 16 for less than 600 dollars? I know that there would be no 400 foot mag or lenses with it but every time i find one on ebay it goes up to over 1000 in the last couple minutes. I just want to know if il ever find one or if i should just go with a bolex. Thanks.

If you only have $600 bucks to spend get a Bolex or a K3

You'll be hard press to find something better than that for that price.

In fact you probably can't even find a really good Bolex for less than a $1000.

Usually Arri 16S cost around 1500-3000 depending on their condition, mods, and accessories.

So you should save until you can afford one or start looking for a cheaper camera

A good K3 can be a steal at under $300. (It's good camera for amatuers and beginingners.)

Eitherways you should read up on 16mm cameras and learn all you can before buying...

Good Luck

Edited October 24, 2006 by Rik Andino

Zamir Merali · October 25, 2006

I found a deal for an arriflex 16bl for a reasonable price (600). I realize that this camera is slightly inferior to the arriflex s but it is only a bit more expensive than a bolex, is working good and comes with two mags so i think i am going to bid on it. Would you guts suggest doing this or not. Thanks.

Tim Carroll · October 25, 2006

I found a deal for an arriflex 16bl for a reasonable price (600). I realize that this camera is slightly inferior to the arriflex s but it is only a bit more expensive than a bolex, is working good and comes with two mags so i think i am going to bid on it. Would you guts suggest doing this or not. Thanks.

I would suggest not bidding on anything until you do some reading. The Arriflex 16BL is a huge step up from an Arriflex 16S. It is a silent "sync" camera and the second generation after the 16S (16S - 16M - 16BL).

Get yourself a copy of this book, read it cover to cover, understand it, ask questions, then try to buy a camera.

16mm Camera Book

-Tim

Tomas Stacewicz · October 25, 2006

For 600 dollars you can get at decent Kinor-16. But then you have to send it for a overhaul (probably worth 300-400 dollars more), but that applies to whatever camera you buy.

Patrick Cooper · October 26, 2006

"The Bolex is not built as well, so won't give you the years of service you would get from the Arriflex."

Although I have never owned a Bolex, I have heard from a number of people who have owned them that they are robust, durable and reliable cameras. Indeed, there are many Bolexes from the 1950s that are in fine form today. Some cinematographers who shoot wildlife documentaries have a mechanical spring wound camera like a Bolex as a back up in case their main electronic camera breaks down 'in the field.' Though having said that, Bolexes do have a weak link - the lens mount. A c mount can be put under a lot of strain if a telephoto lens is mounted without sufficient support.