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Will Montgomery

Houses that handle Ultra 16

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I'm considering having my Scoopic modified for Ultra 16 since it seems to be much easier than doing a true Super 16 mod but I'm concerned that finding a transfer house might be difficult. This will allow me to continue to use it as standard 16, but for future HD transfers I'll have a little more film to work with.

 

I believe a Spirit or Shadow can handle it, but I know that the Y-Front my local house uses can't since it can't see into the sproket area on the left (due to pin registration?).

 

I'm basically looking for two types of transfers, a standard def, anamorphic 16:9 and HD. Can anyone recommend a reasonable transfer houses with good colorists that could handle the Ultra 16 frame?

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Guest Film Runner
I'm considering having my Scoopic modified for Ultra 16 since it seems to be much easier than doing a true Super 16 mod but I'm concerned that finding a transfer house might be difficult. This will allow me to continue to use it as standard 16, but for future HD transfers I'll have a little more film to work with.

 

I believe a Spirit or Shadow can handle it, but I know that the Y-Front my local house uses can't since it can't see into the sproket area on the left (due to pin registration?).

 

I'm basically looking for two types of transfers, a standard def, anamorphic 16:9 and HD. Can anyone recommend a reasonable transfer houses with good colorists that could handle the Ultra 16 frame?

 

Most any higher end house can zoom back a bit to get the full area.

 

Fotokem is the best on the west coast in my opinion.

 

Yale Film and Video comes in as a close second, older equipment but they more than make up for it. Greg, the main telecine guy, is the bees knees.

 

Off topic, does your K-3 S16 have a modified viewfinder?

 

Do you know how they did it?

 

Is there a removable viewfinder mask? I was under the impression the prism was the limiting factor in getting a viewfinder modification.

 

F.R.

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Most any higher end house can zoom back a bit to get the full area.

 

Fotokem is the best on the west coast in my opinion.

 

Yale Film and Video comes in as a close second, older equipment but they more than make up for it. Greg, the main telecine guy, is the bees knees.

 

Off topic, does your K-3 S16 have a modified viewfinder?

 

Do you know how they did it?

 

Is there a removable viewfinder mask? I was under the impression the prism was the limiting factor in getting a viewfinder modification.

 

F.R.

 

Hi,

 

FWIW no commercial telecine or optical printer supports Ultra 16.

 

Stephen

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Hi,

 

FWIW no commercial telecine or optical supports Ultra 16.

 

Stephen

 

They won't tell you the "officially support" it. But then again, when you are in the suite with colorist you can ask them to pull back to the perfs.

 

And on the high end of things...

 

Scan Ultra 16 at 2K for a digital intermediate and you'd be surprised how good it looks. But that gets expensive.

 

Use of non standard SMPTE or ISO formats at a transfer house will make them say they don't support it but that doesn't mean they can't do it.

 

It would just be "at the users risk".

 

Ultra-16mm is wonderful format.

 

F.R.

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They won't tell you the "officially support" it. But then again, when you are in the suite with colorist you can ask them to pull back to the perfs.

 

And on the high end of things...

 

Scan Ultra 16 at 2K for a digital intermediate and you'd be surprised how good it looks. But that gets expensive.

 

Use of non standard SMPTE or ISO formats at a transfer house will make them say they don't support it but that doesn't mean they can't do it.

 

It would just be "at the users risk".

 

Ultra-16mm is wonderful format.

 

F.R.

 

Hi.

 

I was using a Spirit for S16 last week and asked the colourist to pull back, he was unable to see between the 2 perfs! Therefore I believe that a Spirit is unable to scan Ultra 16.

 

FWIW there is no scanner with an Ultra 16 gate so again a 2K scan is not possible, except in your imagination.

 

BTW it is a requirement of this forum to use your real name.

 

Stephen

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Film Runner,

 

D'ya mind changing your display name to your real name in the 'My Controls' link?

 

The first paragraph of the Forum Guidelines thus state:

 

Members on this forum are required to use their full real names for their Display Name. The format to use is your first name followed by a space followed by your last/family/surname. Please capitalize the first letter of each. Accounts that do not comply will be removed and cannot be reactivated. Display names can be edited in My Controls / Change Display Name once you?re logged in.

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Hi.

 

I was using a Spirit for S16 last week and asked the colourist to pull back, he was unable to see between the 2 perfs! Therefore I believe that a Spirit is unable to scan Ultra 16.

 

FWIW there is no scanner with an Ultra 16 gate so again a 2K scan is not possible, except in your imagination.

 

BTW it is a requirement of this forum to use your real name.

 

Stephen

 

This is my real name. Check my last post on that subject.

 

F.R.

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FWIW there is no scanner with an Ultra 16 gate so again a 2K scan is not possible, except in your imagination.

 

Really?

 

How much would you care to wager on that?

 

F.R.

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Please change your display name to your real name.

 

What? You want a scan of my Driver's License?

 

Will that make everybody happy?

 

F.R.

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No, we just want you to use your real name.

 

I'd rather not.

 

Have fun in your little sandbox.

 

You guys missed out.

 

F.R.

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Really?

 

How much would you care to wager on that?

 

F.R.

 

Hi Mr Film Runner,

 

Gates in film scanners are machined to fractions of a mm. They will not by chance be 1mm oversize! Sure if you use a S16 gate you can see the perfs on one side but not on the other.

 

Stephen

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I'm considering having my Scoopic modified for Ultra 16 since it seems to be much easier than doing a true Super 16 mod but I'm concerned that finding a transfer house might be difficult. This will allow me to continue to use it as standard 16, but for future HD transfers I'll have a little more film to work with.

 

I believe a Spirit or Shadow can handle it, but I know that the Y-Front my local house uses can't since it can't see into the sproket area on the left (due to pin registration?).

 

I'm basically looking for two types of transfers, a standard def, anamorphic 16:9 and HD. Can anyone recommend a reasonable transfer houses with good colorists that could handle the Ultra 16 frame?

 

 

I think the basic problem with this format is that most film handling gear (Tk.,Printers, etc.) ignores the area between the sprockets on that side of the 16mm frame and furthermore uses it as the primary support and handling of the film. This is, of course, not a problem in process or assembly if you assume Super-16 and do bench assembly with tight-winds.

 

I was using a Spirit2k with Pogle platinum in NYC some months ago (I was operating) to transfer Super-16 which I had shot. Being familiar with TK/CC operation I tried some standard re-positioning stuff as I wanted to see how a CCD based Tk handled zooms, etc and I am used to Flying Spot. I saw no perf area on the Spirit. I would assume that a re-working of the super16 gate and optics would have to happen with the spirit to get it to do ultra, or at least a re-machining of the skid plate in the gate. A cut skid plate would not do anything to keep other parts of the TK mechanism from scratching the ultra area on the left side i.e. rollers.

 

A Y-Front does not have a Pin registered 16mm gate or at least I do not know of anyone who ever made one, 35mm pin+ gates were common. I think it would be relatively easier to get a SD rank to at least show the full frame of this format and at one time last year I had someone call to inquire about whether we could handle ultra16 and I was considering a simple modification to one of our 16mm gates to be able to see the area those people decided to shoot Super16 instead. That modification would be a easy thing for our machine shop to do and would involve widening the aperture of the skid plate but again would not be a complete re work of the Tk mechanism from rollers to encoder sprockets to skid plate flats which would be needed to ensure a scratch free movement.

 

I think scanning might be a more viable option but if you are trying to put your 16mm on a Northlight or Arriscan those costs will dwarf any money saved by shooting Ultra-16. Perhaps Jeff Kreines Kinetta scanner would work for this as I believe it is a continuous movement with a very simple "gate" requiring a optical zoom on the camera you might want to ask him.

 

I seriously doubt that a facility with a Spirit or DSX, etc would be willing to modify a $60K+ gate for this.

 

-Rob-

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I seriously doubt that a facility with a Spirit or DSX, etc would be willing to modify a $60K+ gate for this.

 

I agree. It boils down to finding a gate/device that can see the sprokets; if it can "zoom out" to see those, then I'm sure I can work with the colorist and a little math to get to my anamorphic SD or HD transfer.

 

I was told that a Millennium can do it as it can see the entire film. I thought the Spirit could, but I defer to more experienced people on that.

 

Just trying to find if someone that has actually worked in this format and had any transfer successes. The mod for my Scoopic will be affordable while a Super 16 mod would be crazy labor intensive and not worth it by a long shot.

 

p.s. What a pleasure to be a member of a forum that doesn't rely on cheezy nicknames and has professionals that actually care about their craft and helping other artists develop.

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I agree. It boils down to finding a gate/device that can see the sprokets; if it can "zoom out" to see those, then I'm sure I can work with the colorist and a little math to get to my anamorphic SD or HD transfer.

 

I was told that a Millennium can do it as it can see the entire film.

 

 

YOU ARE CORRECT!

 

Stephen Williams owes you a lunch for his bogus information.

 

I'd have had him taking me to lunch, but he wouldn't put his money where his mouth is.

 

 

p.s. What a pleasure to be a member of a forum that doesn't rely on cheezy nicknames and has professionals that actually care about their craft and helping other artists develop.

 

Well, Will Montgomery, ass kissing is your choice.

 

I won't take part in any online group that demands people's 'true name'.

 

Aside from being incredible tacky, childish and possibly even dangerous. It's ethically and morally wrong.

 

But all of you work or want to work in Hollywood, so I guess that isn't a problem for you.

 

Have fun. I'm leaving.

 

Goodbye.

 

F.R.

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I agree. It boils down to finding a gate/device that can see the sprokets; if it can "zoom out" to see those, then I'm sure I can work with the colorist and a little math to get to my anamorphic SD or HD transfer.

 

I was told that a Millennium can do it as it can see the entire film. I thought the Spirit could, but I defer to more experienced people on that.

 

 

The Millenium may very well be able to do this as it has a gate which "floats' the film on air somehow and a flying spot machine can change the patch size and shape to give optical zoom effects so it would be worth a try. That machine is in my opinion capable of making better images than the spirit 2K and later models will scan to 4K.

 

-Rob-

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My understanding is that a camera converted to Super-16 can still shoot standard 16 film. So that seems worthwhile if the conversion itself is economical. Granted the Scoopy doesn't look like a good candidate, but there are other cameras out there. Keeping an eye out for a good deal on a Super-16 might make Ultra-16 a moot issue. Is being able to expose between the sprockets worthwhile if it's so hard to find support later?

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YOU ARE CORRECT!

 

Stephen Williams owes you a lunch for his bogus information.

 

I'd have had him taking me to lunch, but he wouldn't put his money where his mouth is.

Well, Will Montgomery, ass kissing is your choice.

 

I won't take part in any online group that demands people's 'true name'.

 

Goodbye.

 

F.R.

 

Hi FR,

 

Are you saying Milleniun supports Ultra 16 ?

 

OK so a handfull of telecines in the world may be able to see the image but what about scratching?

 

So what scanners can handle Ultra 16 then?

 

Stephen

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OK so a handfull of telecines in the world may be able to see the image but what about scratching?

 

So what scanners can handle Ultra 16 then?

 

Stephen

 

Stephen, can you explain the main differences between scanners and a telecine machines.

 

Cheers,

Andy

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Stephen, can you explain the main differences between scanners and a telecine machines.

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

A telecine is by definition a real time video machine.

A scanner works with a single frame (ideally pin registered) at a time.

 

Having recently compared the images output from a Spirit Data cine to an Arri scanner, scanning at 3k down sized to 2K and 6k down sized to 4k, I can confirm that they are not the same! The facility owner with the Spirit claimed he knew there would be no difference, he said "do you think I am lying?" I replied "you see what your brain want's you to see."

 

Stephen

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Is being able to expose between the sprockets worthwhile if it's so hard to find support later?

That's actually what I'm trying to figure out. :)

 

I have a K3 modified for Super 16, but just the gate is widened, the lens isn't recentered like a professional camera would have been. The results are ok/passable with prime lenses but you get bizarre effects if you use a zoom and actually zoom while filming... not that I do that very often.

 

The Scoopic's shutter is actually not wide enough for Super 16 if just the gate is widened (plus the lens would not cover that area when its at its widest), so you have to go in and rebuild the thing in a machine shop to recenter the lens and shutter. I've gotten an estimate for around $2000 to do this and obviously its not worth it even if I'd have one of only a handful of true Super 16 Scoopics.

 

For my use (small band music videos, weddings, home movies) the Scoopic is a great camera. I'd just like to future proof my footage a little by getting closer to the 16:9 ratio. But as Bernie O'Doherty just told me, its much simpler to just mark the 16:9 area on the ground glass and simply zoom in durring transfer.

 

I might have the Ultra mod still done in case I have the opportunity to use a Millenium in the future, but its sounding less and less like a practical option.

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But as Bernie O'Doherty just told me, its much simpler to just mark the 16:9 area on the ground glass and simply zoom in durring transfer..

 

Hi,

 

I would use a slow speed stock & take Bernie's advice.

 

Stephen

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