Industrial CMOS camera as an entry-level HD cinema camera (1080p)

Cesar Rubio · March 16, 2007

Hi Cesar,

Awesome - that sounds great! Thanks for letting me know. I'm very eager to see some stills and footage. I'll keep an eye on your forum tomorrow night.

It may be a little early to ask - and you probably already know what I want to ask, anyway - but at some point (no rush at all) do you think you can make a short clip taken at the maximum frame rate for 1280x720px (I'm guessing it would be 8 bit?) at a "cinematic" shutter speed like 1/48? I would love to see that, to see how it handles motion, what the maximum slow-motion effect looks like, etc. I think that we're probably both interested in the same kind of applications/uses for the camera, and I'm eager to see maximum-quality footage to get a feel for the limits that the camera is capable of. If it's a large file and you're not able to host it, let me know and I can probably host it.

Thanks so much, Cesar!

Troy:

Probably next week I will have time to do what your asking.

I am planning to shot 720p at 24fps, but I need to edit it in Vegas to apply the 3:2 pulldown for proper viewing in a PC. Also it would be better if you set your PC monitor at 60HZ.

With the Pike F-145 I am planning to shoot some 14 bit footage too, but I need to know what codec might still preserve the bit depth without converting it to 8 bit.

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Troy Warr · March 16, 2007

Troy:

Probably next week I will have time to do what your asking.

I am planning to shot 720p at 24fps, but I need to edit it in Vegas to apply the 3:2 pulldown for proper viewing in a PC. Also it would be better if you set your PC monitor at 60HZ.

With the Pike F-145 I am planning to shoot some 14 bit footage too, but I need to know what codec might still preserve the bit depth without converting it to 8 bit.

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Excellent! I'm very excited to see the 24fps footage, too.

By the way - I was rooting around for more info on the F-145c, and I happened to come across this on an AVT data page:

That chart seems to reflect the lesser scenario for max FPS calculations, actually being even a bit worse than what that engineer had suggested to you. I worked up a little chart of my own (below) that lists the specified max FPS as listed on the chart above, and what we would have calculated using our formula (considering full horizontal resolution of 1388, multiplied by vertical resolution, then divided into the 30 fps given by maximum resolution):

Still, even with those reduced figures, it looks like it would be good news (at least for me - I don't know what your expectations or hopes are) in that I could shoot 2.35 ratio footage up to almost exactly 48fps for half-speed slow motion. If I need to go further I'd bet I could get good results from Twixtor, given that high quality, high frame rate footage to begin with (maybe up to 96fps?).

On a different note, would the bit depth affect the frame rates that can be achieved, or does that not matter?

I'm not too familiar with modern codecs - don't know what would be able to preserve the full 14bpp of the footage; let me know if you aren't able to track that down and maybe we can post the question in another thread.

Thanks, Cesar!

Cesar Rubio · March 16, 2007

Troy:

I apologize, due to a UPS "emergency", I didn't received the package today....probably on Monday, but who knows?...Not even UPS Customer Service!

When I have more time I can comment on your last post, sorry I am very busy with other work right now.

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Cesar Rubio · March 17, 2007

Still, even with those reduced figures, it looks like it would be good news (at least for me - I don't know what your expectations or hopes are) in that I could shoot 2.35 ratio footage up to almost exactly 48fps for half-speed slow motion. If I need to go further I'd bet I could get good results from Twixtor, given that high quality, high frame rate footage to begin with (maybe up to 96fps?).

On a different note, would the bit depth affect the frame rates that can be achieved, or does that not matter?

Troy:

In the AVT table it says that at 1024 V resolution we can achieve 30 fps.

Now if we divide 1024/30=34.13

Now 1024-720=304

304/34.13=8.90

8.90+30=38.9

Scott (AVT Engineer) told me that he was getting 39-40 fps at 720 v resolution...pretty close don't you think?

Bit depth from 10 to 16 bit requires an extra Byte of storage (is the same for 10,12,14 or 16 bit). So that is twice the Hard Drive space needed vs 8 bit video.

If we apply mathematics in the same amount as the HD space, then the result would be half the frame rate right?....Wrong (or it seems anyway). Scott told me that he got 33 fps at Raw 16 (14 bit actually).

That doesn't make any sense to me, but hopefully on Monday I can run several tests to see it by-myself!

I'll keep you informed.

I think that we the Pike F-210c you can achieve the frame rate that you want at 720 v...but I don't remember exactly right now.

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Troy Warr · March 18, 2007

Very cool, Cesar, that's promising information and good to know.

The F-210c would certainly be ideal, but I think it might be a little out of my price range considering the other items and accessories that I'm planning to get with my budget. I'd love to be able to shoot 1080p24, but I'm realizing that it might make more sense to stick with 720p until I have proof of concept, and then maybe think of stepping things up a notch. Hopefully, by that point (maybe a couple of years) these cameras will be cheaper and/or more capable, and 1080p HDTV sets will be more common.

I think I follow you on the bit depth math - so essentially, anything above 8-bit (i.e. 10-16) would double the data rate? So, I assume that there's not much reason to shoot 10, 12, or 14-bit, considering you're getting less dynamic range in the same amount of data.

Cesar Rubio · March 19, 2007

I think I follow you on the bit depth math - so essentially, anything above 8-bit (i.e. 10-16) would double the data rate? So, I assume that there's not much reason to shoot 10, 12, or 14-bit, considering you're getting less dynamic range in the same amount of data.

Yes Troy, anything above 8 bit will double the data rate. The max bit depth of AVT cams is 14 bit. The Red camera and SI-2K for example, work (or will work) at 12 bit. I don't know why they don't step up more in the bit depth (including AVT) if we take in consideration that they already are paying the double rate penalty!

Probably I will ask Scott this question on Tuesday when he'll be back.

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Cesar Rubio · March 19, 2007

I am ready Troy...and whoever is interested too!

http://www.davidrubio3d.com/view_topic.php...amp;forum_id=60

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Cesar Rubio · June 26, 2007

I have posted a couple of images taken with a Pike F-210c (1080p) camera last night.

You can see them here:

http://www.davidrubio3d.com/view_topic.php...amp;forum_id=60

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Cesar Rubio · June 27, 2007

Now I have some video footage of the Pike F-210c on my forum here:

http://www.davidrubio3d.com/view_topic.php...amp;forum_id=60

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Cesar Rubio · June 27, 2007

I apologize for the problems with my forum. I have problems with the hosting company.

Probably is time to move my forum to the other company where I have my store hosted.

Please read this:

http://www.wowbb.com/forums/forum15/8566-1.html

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Cambridge Wisconsin, USA.

http://www.davidrubio3d.com/

Cesar Rubio · June 27, 2007

It seems that the problem has been fixed...but, for how long?

Who knows.

CR.

Anmol Mishra · September 12, 2007

If we were to make a list of 1" sensor cameras capable of 720P and higher res at 24P and higher framerated, what do we have ?

1. Pike F210

2. Pulnix

3. Imperx

Any others ? It would be good to make a list...

As far as the know only the Kodak KAI sensor is 1-inch and higher..Could be wrong though..

Cesar Rubio · October 13, 2007

Hi all:

After a long wait and a lot of work, we have some new and better images of the AVT Pike F-210c camera to show.

They are worth watching....CineForm has changed all the game of Machine Vision Cameras!

http://www.davidrubio3d.com/view_topic.php...amp;forum_id=68

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

Cesar Rubio · December 15, 2007

After more than a year, we have a 35 sec HD video with sound shot with the Pike F-210c camera with CineForm Raw in 12 bit.

You can see the video here:

http://www.davidrubio3d.com/view_topic.php...amp;forum_id=68

Thanks,

Cesar Rubio.

January 15, 2008

hi,

i didn't want to steal your thread so i've started my own, a similar setup. i've got the components i want to use if you want to make some comments feel free :)