pushing 7218

[Frank Barrera]

I searched this forum and the 16MM forum thinking I had seen this very topic in the last year or so but couldn't find it. So here it is:

 

I am shooting some night ext NYC stuff this weekend with 7218 with zero movie lights. First time doing this. It's all far away sky scrapper 2nd unit type material. Empire State Building, etc. My instinct is to go ahead and push one stop and rate at 800 ASA. This is for video transfer only. I will have my spot meter and make the final decision when I get there. But I was wondering if anyone out there has some advice as to whether the push is necessary or not. That is: is a 500 ASA rating with out a push fast enough to get NYC skyscrappers at night?

 

 

thanks in advace.

 

f

[John Pytlak RIP]

I searched this forum and the 16MM forum thinking I had seen this very topic in the last year or so but couldn't find it. So here it is:

 

I am shooting some night ext NYC stuff this weekend with 7218 with zero movie lights. First time doing this. It's all far away sky scrapper 2nd unit type material. Empire State Building, etc. My instinct is to go ahead and push one stop and rate at 800 ASA. This is for video transfer only. I will have my spot meter and make the final decision when I get there. But I was wondering if anyone out there has some advice as to whether the push is necessary or not. That is: is a 500 ASA rating with out a push fast enough to get NYC skyscrappers at night?

thanks in advace.

 

f

 

For a cityscape of lit buildings and streets, EI500 should be more than sufficient. In general, shooting "wide open" with 7218 should give you a fairly solid negative that will yield rich blacks on transfer.

[Aleksandar Bracinac]

I've shot city at night with Eterna 500 and rate it 500 ASA at 25fps sector 180 with SuperSpeeds. I had no need to push.

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

My instinct is to go ahead and push one stop and rate at 800 ASA...

 

Why would you do that? You would be underexposing by a little over a 1/2 a stop, and underexposing with a push would only increase the graininess.

 

Rate at 500 (or lower if there's enough light), open the lens to it's widest aperture (hopefully at least a T/2) and enjoy.

[Michael Nash]

My rule of thumb for urban night exteriors is T1.4 @ 640 ASA, give or take. Not far off from 1.3 at 500 ASA, and '18's shadow detail should hold up pretty well.

[Rob.m.Neilson]

I wouldn't worry about pushing it really...I shot on a street in Brooklyn with nothing but a few of the streetlights with 7218 and a superspeed lens that opened up to 1.3

 

Everything came out perfect looking...and I imagine the lights on the skyline would be ok to shoot wide open without pushing it and bringing up the grain.

 

Do you have any time to shoot tests?

[Frank Barrera]

Why would you do that? You would be underexposing by a little over a 1/2 a stop, and underexposing with a push would only increase the graininess.

 

I would rate the stock at 800 ASA and push one stop effectively bringing the 500 ASA up to 1000 ASA. So I would still be overexposing for a slightly denser negative.

 

But by the various replies it sounds like I will fine just going with the 500 rating.

Edited March 1, 2007 by Frank Barrera

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

I would rate the stock at 800 ASA and push one stop effectively bringing the 500 ASA up to 1000 ASA. So I would still be overexposing for a slightly denser negative.

 

Ohhh, ok, so I assume you were thinking of doing a push process? I wasn't seeing how you were going to achieve a denser negative by underexposing, ha ha

 

But yeah, 500T 16mm is still so grainy in my opinion, it'd be very noticeable if you pushed it. Like everyone says, rating it at 500 should do you good :)

[Frank Barrera]

My rule of thumb for urban night exteriors is T1.4 @ 640 ASA, give or take. Not far off from 1.3 at 500 ASA, and '18's shadow detail should hold up pretty well.

mmmm... well it turns out that my zoom is a T2.5. perhaps I do need that push. What do you think?

[Jonathan Bowerbank]

mmmm... well it turns out that my zoom is a T2.5. perhaps I do need that push. What do you think?

 

I've never metered the lights or buildings/walls they illuminate in NY, but having also shot some night stuff with available street lights here in SF, I barely achieved correct exposure wide open at T.2.

 

Hopefully, you'll be able to push it and then degrain in post to really bring up that detail without the distracting noise that I usually see in 7218.

[Michael Nash]

mmmm... well it turns out that my zoom is a T2.5. perhaps I do need that push. What do you think?

 

If you're shooting buildings, why not just undercrank?

[Robert Houllahan]

I've never metered the lights or buildings/walls they illuminate in NY, but having also shot some night stuff with available street lights here in SF, I barely achieved correct exposure wide open at T.2.

 

Hopefully, you'll be able to push it and then degrain in post to really bring up that detail without the distracting noise that I usually see in 7218.

 

 

I have been shooting an indie feature ('The Illustrator") mostly in NYC and Trenton/Princeton Nj we have done some extensive available light shooting outdoors at night in NYC. I have been primarily shooting the picture with my LTR54 and I have a set of Zeiss superspeeds for it. I am constantly amazed by the newer 500t stocks both fuji eterna and kodak xx18 when it comes to exposing at night in the city. Wide open superspeed primes are a must though a t2.5 zoom is really going to hurt you for getting the exposure, certainly undercranking is an option I am very fond of the 6fps setting on the aaton.

 

-Rob-

[Frank Barrera]

If you're shooting buildings, why not just undercrank?

that's an excellent idea and one that will work for most of the shots. But I do have a couple of shots that involve an actors hand in extreme foreground with the buildings in extreme background. the hands will move a little so undercranking won't work there. I have managed to get a Zeiss 135MM T2.1 which will help. So maybe I'm back to the idea of pushing one stop...

[Michael Nash]

that's an excellent idea and one that will work for most of the shots. But I do have a couple of shots that involve an actors hand in extreme foreground with the buildings in extreme background. the hands will move a little so undercranking won't work there. I have managed to get a Zeiss 135MM T2.1 which will help. So maybe I'm back to the idea of pushing one stop...

 

If you push, you're committed to the buildup of grain for the whole roll. Since this is for telecine you might consider processing normally, and bringing up the mids of any underexposed shots in transfer (keeping the blacks down). Not that this will avoid grain either, but at least the rest of your roll will be clean.

 

Maybe you could add a little light to the actor's hands (you only need something small, since it's a closeup), and pick a background that has a lot of lights to make up for the fact that it's otherwise a little dark back there.

[Robert Houllahan]

that's an excellent idea and one that will work for most of the shots. But I do have a couple of shots that involve an actors hand in extreme foreground with the buildings in extreme background. the hands will move a little so undercranking won't work there. I have managed to get a Zeiss 135MM T2.1 which will help. So maybe I'm back to the idea of pushing one stop...

 

 

Maybe John from Kodak can chime in here but I have found that pushing xx18 seems not to yield a full stop increase maybe it has something to do with the newer grain structure with this stock.....I would run a test with your lab first.

 

-Rob-

[John Thomas]

If you push, you're committed to the buildup of grain for the whole roll. Since this is for telecine you might consider processing normally, and bringing up the mids of any underexposed shots in transfer (keeping the blacks down). Not that this will avoid grain either, but at least the rest of your roll will be clean.

 

Maybe you could add a little light to the actor's hands (you only need something small, since it's a closeup), and pick a background that has a lot of lights to make up for the fact that it's otherwise a little dark back there.

 

Listen to Michael, don't push, you'll regret it. Scout your locations, there are plenty of bright NYC locations.

[Frank Barrera]

I will have a sun gun (way more than I will need) for the actors hands. The challenge is that I will have to talk the director out of some of the buildings he wants because they will be too dark.

 

So no push.

 

Thanks all.

[Michael Nash]

So no push.

 

Thanks all.

 

Have a good shoot -- let us know how it all comes out.

[Sam Wells]

Maybe John from Kodak can chime in here but I have found that pushing xx18 seems not to yield a full stop increase maybe it has something to do with the newer grain structure with this stock.....I would run a test with your lab first.

 

-Rob-

 

Hi Rob, even EXR and Vision "1" I found it's more like 2/3 stop based on printer lights.

 

-Sam

[Robert Houllahan]

Hi Rob, even EXR and Vision "1" I found it's more like 2/3 stop based on printer lights.

 

-Sam

 

 

That was definitely what I was feeling and pushing more with these stocks seem to have diminishing returns. I strongly agree that not pushing and getting the fastest glass is the way to go. We shot a setup in a abandoned fire truck in Brooklyn with just a zippo lighter near an actors face,zeiss 25mm @1.3t with 500t, came out great. City-scapes at night with superspeeds and 500ei stock and I am always surprised, pleasantly, with how much exposes.

 

-rob-

[adam berk]

City-scapes at night with superspeeds and 500ei stock and I am always surprised, pleasantly, with how much exposes.

 

-rob-

 

 

I can say the same. Using my nikons wide open (usually either f2 or f1.4) and 7218, I've found that there is usually enough light polution in downtown san francisco at night to get a good and solid exposure that just looks right.

[Frank Barrera]

Have a good shoot -- let us know how it all comes out.

Well, I just saw the video dailies of the first shoot day and it went well. I used two lenses for the NIGHT EXT URBAN LANDSCAPE material: A Zeiss 135MM T 2.1 Prime and a Cooke 10.4MM-50MM T2.8 Zoom. I went with 7218 normal process with no push, both lenses wide open.

 

The Zeiss rendered the blacks very nicely. Black was black with good contrast. The Cooke however was just not fast enough for a proper exposure. The blacks were a bit milky, the grain became more pronounced and the contrast was somewhat weak. Keep in mind this was a Best Light transfer but the lenses were used on the same magazine so this does serve as a good comparison. Certainly the Cooke's images could be tweaked in a final telecine but it would take some work.

 

In the end the director much prefers the milky and grainy look. Funny how that works.

 

We will continue to shoot more of this material with both lenses and see how they will cut in the final edit and then matched in the final telecine. Should be fine as this is for DVD.