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hi-def lipstick cameras


tomas-english

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shooting a race sequence on s35 for a feature.

 

are there any hidef lipstick cameras that we can put onto hidef decks available to anyones knowledge. would they intercut with s35? bearing in mind this is a very fast action race sequence so got more scope for intercutting,

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Sure they exist! But to compare their output with S35 material is something else.

Remember, it´s most of the time not the camera head or chip block that is big. It´s the recording medium and the lenses that are bulky IF YOU WANT FILM-LIKE QUALITY!!!

 

Little camera´s like this have been used already in some movies. I think there was something in the AC about the shooting of ALI, with Will Smith.

 

You are talking about high action and speed scenes, than the biggest problem will be the undisturbed recording, due to shocks, vibration, rock and roll. Best option could be hard disk recording, but that´s another interesting subject.

 

Rob van Gelder, Bangkok, Thailand

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yeah, my conclusions have resulted in the "additional" head system on the 950, using the digiprimes. that links by cable to the main body.

 

or s16 minicams. I'm thinking maybe even second hand bolex s.

 

its a gritty car chase, with a car stolen by a 10 year old. this part of the film is designed to shock. The car does crash. there s no gloss hanging about this scene.

 

If anyone has any experience using regular lipsticks on hidef decks? i understand some of them do shoot more lines than a digibeta deck records.

 

the eventual decision rest with the Dop. He s just asked me to try and research some lateral options to this.

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It´s the recording medium and the lenses that are bulky IF YOU WANT FILM-LIKE QUALITY!!!

Can't help on the recording side, but if you can sacrifice speed, it's possible to design lenses that are high quality and small. If you only need f/5.6, you should be able to get a very compact package. The selling point so far has always been ever faster lenses. If there's a demand for compact lenses, they'll be made.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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Check this camera out... it's shoots 24P HD.

 

http://ikegami.com/br/products/hdtv/hdtv_camera_frame1.html

 

Use this with a B4 to PL mount adaptor from www.xl1solutions.com and you can use any wide angle PL mount prime lens. One important note: the adaptor from xl1solutions isn't like the P&S Technik... it's a small, milled stainless steel piece, not an electronic devise. So it does double the focal length like a 2x extender. So if you wanted a 20mm focal lenght you would need a 10mm PL prime. The P&S is such a monstrosity, it doesn't accomodate tight spaces. Or you could just use an HD B4 prime.

 

Ikegami also has a full HD wireless microwave transmitter... may you could use that instead of a craddled recorder in the car.

 

Just some wild ideas,

Jason

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had to chime in, this is a very interesting topic for me, however for a slightly different application than the original post.

Basically I am wondering if there is a way to step up from the current POV cam set up that I am using at the moment.

the Sony 555 number hooked up to a litltle one chip sony recorder and a little battery.

I've gotten great results to match up with other 3 chip video, but am now looking to match up with dvx 100 footage or better (720, 1080?)

I can't go too big(size wise, its still POV afterall)), but can still go quite a bit larger than the current setup. I am wondering if there is a next step that I can take. A wide angle lens is critical, recording time doesn't need to be that long, so recording to a drive is possible.

Maybe some of the info you've all provided is applicable, but I've had a tough time following some of the jargin.

THANKS!!!

Erik

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That Ikegami isn't a 24p camera. Ikegami makes some small HD camera heads, but not 24p.

 

If the xl1solutions adaptor contains no optics it doesn't change the focal length.

 

Using PL mount lenses for film cameras on a 3 chip prism optics camera could end up being aberration city, you're cutting this into S35 ?

 

 

-Sam

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That Ikegami isn't a 24p camera. Ikegami makes some small HD camera heads, but not 24p.

 

If the xl1solutions adaptor contains no optics it doesn't change the focal length.

 

Using PL mount lenses for film cameras on a 3 chip prism optics camera could end up being aberration city, you're cutting this into S35 ?

 

This is from the IKEGAMI website for the HDL-240C:

· Native 720/60p, 1080/60i or 1080/24p operation available for HDL-40C And also Native 720/60p operation available with cost effective HDL-240C

 

x1solutions say in there press releases that there adaptors effectively act as a 2x extender, only using the middle part of the lens (they claim this is the "sweet spot" of the glass and makes the image look great)... I'm prone to believe what they say about the 2x effect, but I've haven't used one yet. I hope to get a demo in the next few weeks. Only using the middle part of the lens... would that help with aberrations? These guys supplied the adaptors for "28 days" which was shot on an XL1 with 35mm primes. I know the DV actifacts looked horrid (no pun) but the DOF was better and did help it have a different look, if not very film-like. As far as xl1 footage (no comparison to film), I thought it looked pretty good.

 

Jason

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Hey you're right, that specific feature on that model slipped under my radar. And it does seem to be native, not something done in DSP.

 

(How much more insular can Ikegami get these days ?)

 

I'm puzzled by that xl1 site, I'l look again. But, without aerial imaging / relay optics.... I dunno...

 

-Sam

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Longer lenses exaggerate the focus difference between the foreground subject that is in-focus and the background that is out-of-focus.

 

With a wide-angle lens focused closer to the lens, keeping the same subject size, depth of field may be similar -- but the background on a wide-angle lens is smaller in size (i.e. looks farther away) and thus is harder to tell just how out-of-focus it is. Whereas with a telephoto lens, the background is magnified in detail (i.e. looks closer) and how out-of-focus it is compared to the foreground subject becomes very clear.

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With a wide-angle lens focused closer to the lens, keeping the same subject size, depth of field may be similar -- but the background on a wide-angle lens is smaller in size (i.e. looks farther away) and thus is harder to tell just how out-of-focus it is. Whereas with a telephoto lens, the background is magnified in detail (i.e. looks closer) and how out-of-focus it is compared to the foreground subject becomes very clear.

 

Wouldn't the background be larger on a wide-angle lens... being that a "wide" angle lens shows more than a telephoto? When I zoom out to the wide side of a zoom I see more, not less of the background. I love your explaination of equal DOF yet different amounts of background (& forground) focus, but do you have it backwards? Don't long lenses yield less background detail?

 

Respectfully,

Jason

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I wasn't referring to the amount of total background visible (the field of view) but the physical size of the background details. A telephoto lens "enlarges" the background so you see less overall but what details you do see are larger in the frame. Conversely, a wide-angle lens sees more background overall but the individual details are therefore smaller. So while the depth of field -- the range in which objects are acceptably in-focus -- may be the same, with telephoto lenses, the far background is "zoomed into" and looms larger, although with a narrower field of view, and the fact that it is out of focus is more apparent. If you took a wide-angle photo and zoomed into it, enlarging a small portion in the frame, you'd see the same effect, that the farthest background details are not sharp.

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No argument David !

 

It's just that "DOF" is thrown around so casually; when a vendor's web site makes the equation "use longer lenses & get 'better' (i.e. less) depth of field" a certain ammount of reality check is needed I think.

 

-Sam

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I would not descibe the HDL240 as a lipstick camera :)

All of the box cameras are near as dammitt same size as a viper wthout handle and viewfinder.

I've done the tape measure thing....

The exception is the Sony X300 which is the smallest. 1/2 inch 3 ccd 1440x1080 imager, uses a 1/2 inch mount, may be possible to convert 2/3 inch lenses.

 

A new company called Luma is building small hd cameras which look promising, hopefully available next year.

Ikegami HDL20 is now available as 50i but no p versions are available.

 

Fuji showed a ultrawide lens for the Ikegami HDL20 at IBC

 

A small cmos cam with no TV processsing, into a 444 recorder may be the future. Limited recording time but small camera head and no processing box.

 

 

Mike Brennan

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  • 2 months later...

How about the Toshiba IK-TF 5? It's an ice cube camera, progressive scan, etc. Probably the camera that Luma is basing their design on.

 

http://www.toshiba.com/taisisd/indmed/iktf5.htm

 

Of course, it will suffer from some limitations and drawbacks as far as res. and latitude matching is concerned, but I have used these little cameras in some pretty rough situations, and they hold up well. Don't know if the look will match your expectations, but it might be worth a look.

 

Mike

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  • 3 years later...

Hi

 

Just rekindling this topic to see whats around.....

 

I've been asked to look into rigging an HD lipstick cam in an F1 racing car and wondered what options are about. I've got an Iconix available to me but to record in HD I would have to somehow rig the rather large recorder somewhere in the car which is not an option. Additionally the recorder can only be powered off mains, so not practical. Because the F1 car is being used in race mode, I need to be as discreet as possible. My initial thoughts were to maybe look at the next best format and maybe record onto a HDV camera eg: Lipstick camera inputting into a Canon HV20 for example. Is this possible? The footage needs to intercut with the other HD material which will be originated from several Sony F900's set at 1080p/25P, to add to matters.

 

The crunch is that I need the best quality possible with absolute minimal interferance to the drivers cockpit and car aerodynamics....any suggestions?

 

Many thanks.

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  • 1 year later...

Another recorder, possibly?

http://dveo.com/broadcast-systems/hd-digital-recorder.shtml

How about using the Iconix and converting it to ASI?

http://www.evertz.com/products/2405EO-HD

You can then record using something like this, attached to a laptop:

http://dveo.com/pdf/DivCatch.pdf

....I've used all of the above items, in various combinations, and they work well.

 

Steiny

(415)819-2009

Sand Francesco

Producer

 

 

Hi

 

Just rekindling this topic to see whats around.....

 

I've been asked to look into rigging an HD lipstick cam in an F1 racing car and wondered what options are about. I've got an Iconix available to me but to record in HD I would have to somehow rig the rather large recorder somewhere in the car which is not an option. Additionally the recorder can only be powered off mains, so not practical. Because the F1 car is being used in race mode, I need to be as discreet as possible. My initial thoughts were to maybe look at the next best format and maybe record onto a HDV camera eg: Lipstick camera inputting into a Canon HV20 for example. Is this possible? The footage needs to intercut with the other HD material which will be originated from several Sony F900's set at 1080p/25P, to add to matters.

 

The crunch is that I need the best quality possible with absolute minimal interferance to the drivers cockpit and car aerodynamics....any suggestions?

 

Many thanks.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Tammo,

 

You could look at using the Convergent Design Flash XDR as an onboard recorder: it records a HD-SDI source to solid-state CompactFlash media at very high quality (MPEG2 4:2:2: long-GOP up to 100Mbps, I-Frame only up to 160Mbps). As it's all solid state with no moving parts it's impervious to vibrations and G-forces.

As you point out the most likely issue you're going to encounter here is size constraints, given how cramped on F1 cockpit is! The unit itself is fairly small for what it is, 8"x6"x2.5" and weighs just under 1.2kg. It runs off 6-20V DC, with a 4-pin XLR connector, so you can power it from a range of batteries. The XDR has been used in sports cars, rally cars, on motorbikes, jet fighters and stunt planes, so its not outside the realms of possibility to use it on an F1 car!

 

http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_FlashXDR.htm

 

Paul

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