RED annonces prices on accessories

[Mitch Gross]

Anyone complaining about Red's pricelist is on crack. These prices are extremely competitive, in fact below the point I suspected they'd come in. Red is being very aggressive on their pricing and to expect anything lower is unrealistic.

 

If you don't want to pay for it then don't buy it!

[Chad Stockfleth]

Of all the things RED could be called out on, price is not the issue.

 

Aesthetically what do you guys think of it? Looks like some kind of weapon from an ALIEN movie. I can't decide if it's awesome or gaudy!

[Carl Brighton]

Those that continually rant about its technological viability are simply laymen who are completely unfamiliar with the technology. It?s an establish technology in a new application using all the improvements in processing and design; a matter of mathematics and engineering is all there is left to improve the results.

That's a bit of a straw man you're erecting there.

 

I don't think anybody here said it absolutely couldn't be done; the main question was whether it could be done for a realistic price. The big problem with this sort of project is that the likely number of units they could realistically hope to sell seems to be way out of proportion to the cost of developing the sensor.

 

Certainly other manufacturers (Arri and Dalsa) have brought out broadly similar products, but they were just spinoffs; the R&D for the sensors was largely subsidized by government or other contracts. Those haven't been particularly successful products to date either.

 

Another source of the "ranting" was that in the early days at least, RED gave the distinct impression that THEY were making the sensor, somehow leveraging their expertise in the precision manufacturing of eyewear!

 

It would be interesting to hear how much profit Jannard hopes to make from each camera. And why isn't he giving away a free pair of Oakleys with each purchase (with special Red lenses, naturally) :D

[Max Jacoby]

Of all the things RED could be called out on, price is not the issue.

Yeah, the thing that annoys me most is their marketing. Posting on boards, all that 'Oh we are doing something incredible, but we can't tell you about it. Yet.'. Just dangling carrots in front of people's noses, I find that whole attitude completely not serious. Arri and Panavision only announce new products when they are nearly finished and then everyone can test them for themselves and make up their own minds, instead of touting stuff that even doesn't exist yet.

[Carl Brighton]

Aesthetically what do you guys think of it? Looks like some kind of weapon from an ALIEN movie. I can't decide if it's awesome or gaudy!

Needs more cooling fins :P

 

Who cares? If it did the job, they could package it in a reinforced shoebox and people would still use it.

 

It always meakes me laugh how you can buy kid's toys for next to nothing these days that are vastly more exciting than a lot of the props that were used in earlier Sci Fi films, that probably cost a fortune to get made!

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Yeah, the thing that annoys me most is their marketing. Posting on boards, all that 'Oh we are doing something incredible, but we can't tell you about it. Yet.'. Just dangling carrots in front of people's noses, I find that whole attitude completely not serious. Arri and Panavision only announce new products when they are nearly finished and then everyone can test them for themselves and make up their own minds, instead of touting stuff that even doesn't exist yet.

I think you´ve expressed your point about a 100 times already, make your own post instead of derailing yet another...

[Max Jacoby]

Sorry if I touched a raw nerve there with you, Eirik.

[Patrizio De Sica]

Eirik, though always flying side by side with the Red crew, I must confess on that Max is right. Their marketing is boring. For children such as the most of Red users there. AFAIK there aren't their camera users yet. I am their reader and I did have no guts for log in. He had the worst step that who has the power between hands could do. Surrounding only with yes man.

 

Their marketing is boring and deceiving. I wouldn't say if it wasn't. I'm not even a skeptic.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Eirik, though always flying side by side with the Red crew, I must confess on that Max is right. Their marketing is boring. For children such as the most of Red users there. AFAIK there aren't their camera users yet. I am their reader and I did have no guts for log in. He had the worst step that who has the power between hands could do. Surrounding only with yes man.

 

Their marketing is boring and deceiving. I wouldn't say if it wasn't. I'm not even a skeptic.

 

Patrizio and Max, I guess my point is this: if you want to discuss RED marketing (which I would love to discuss), why not open a new thread discussing that, instead of hijacking exsiting ones.

 

I agree that reduser.net is a forum with mostly yes men, and there is many good reasons why that is so, I am not going to get into that here, but once one of you (or someone else) starts a thread on RED marketing I will attend!

[Patrizio De Sica]

Surrounding only with yes man.

 

Not just the typical yes man. The yes follower men. Sad.

 

Patrizio and Max, I guess my point is this: if you want to discuss RED marketing (which I would love to discuss), why not open a new thread discussing that, instead of hijacking exsiting ones.

 

I agree that reduser.net is a forum with mostly yes men, and there is many good reasons why that is so, I am not going to get into that here, but once one of you (or someone else) starts a thread on RED marketing I will attend!

 

Since Jim Jannard has had an aggressive policy on marketing through fake prices (taking advantage on accessories), I'd answer you that anyone has the right to post here on subject.

[Gary McClurg]

Patrizio,

 

Its been a while since I've read about the RED... only about the last few days after the prices were released... but I thought you were hot for the camera... what changed your mind suddenly?

Edited March 16, 2007 by Gary McClurg

[Mark Allen]

I'm almost embarassed to ask this... What is the advantage of the EVF over the LCD? I'm almost embarassed to ask this... but... I know that even on rare occasion when I'm having to operate I always use the LCD these days because it lets me stay aware peripherally of what is going on around me.... is it just that most people prefer having the more focused (and probably therefore accurate) view?

[Patrizio De Sica]

Patrizio,

 

Its been a while since I've read about the RED... only about the last few days after the prices were released... but I thought you were hot for the camera... what changed your mind suddenly?

 

Not the project, maybe not the marketing. The attitude. The yes men (who does not like free men...). The demagogue.

[Patrizio De Sica]

Ah, and not so suddenly. Never the less, that accessories move was the confirmation.

[Mitch Gross]

I'm almost embarassed to ask this... What is the advantage of the EVF over the LCD? I'm almost embarassed to ask this... but... I know that even on rare occasion when I'm having to operate I always use the LCD these days because it lets me stay aware peripherally of what is going on around me.... is it just that most people prefer having the more focused (and probably therefore accurate) view?

Try using an LCD outside in the daytime and you'll see the advantages of a viewfinder that lets in no other light. Also, try focusing off an LCD panel.

[Chris Kenny]

Ah, and not so suddenly. Never the less, that accessories move was the confirmation.

 

This is utterly baffling. Red's accessory pricing is extremely aggressive. What exactly is your objection?

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

>Also, try focusing off an LCD panel.

 

Well, careful there - many cameras (such as the JVC GY-HD251) have a flip-out LCD that considerably outresolves the viewfinder, which is also a (much smaller) LCD.

 

I believe the Accuscene is an LCD, after all.

 

Phil

[Stephen Williams]

This is utterly baffling. Red's accessory pricing is extremely aggressive. What exactly is your objection?

 

Hi Chris,

 

Som fanboys may have been unrealistic about the final cost of a usable Red package.

 

Stephen

[Carl Brighton]

Hi,

 

I believe the Accuscene is an LCD, after all.

 

Phil

The original accuscene used an OLED (ORganic LED) display if I remember correctly. Apparently those have a rather short operational life and last I heard Panaviison were replacing them with LCD models from Sony. I don't know if they just retrofitted a new LCD guts or built an entirely new display though.

[Mitch Gross]

Hi,

 

>Also, try focusing off an LCD panel.

 

Well, careful there - many cameras (such as the JVC GY-HD251) have a flip-out LCD that considerably outresolves the viewfinder, which is also a (much smaller) LCD.

 

I believe the Accuscene is an LCD, after all.

 

Phil

I was referring to a small LCD panel that is used as a flip out screen or onboard monitor. In the case of the JVC cameras you're very much correct, and in fact I know that JVC is working to offer a superior model viewfinder as an upgrade. LCD screens are not inherently bad for focusing, but they are when not viewed through a magnifying optic (such as in a viewfinder) so that the pitch depth between pixels fills are larger field of view in one's vision.

 

I think I can pretty safely say that the RED viewfinder uses an LCD as well. But then again Jim's surprised me before, and I can only eat so many hats.

[Patrizio De Sica]

This is utterly baffling. Red's accessory pricing is extremely aggressive. What exactly is your objection?

 

The same game of the big players of electronics when it seemed to play a different role. What do you call to those field production configurations? The customer side?

 

Perhaps the Yes Men don't have guts to say that he had posted that there would be between 20 and 30 prototypes in December and now one month before NAB, there's only the Natasha, Boris, Spike and Frankie. Did I forget anyone?

 

Ah, plus the battery or the LCD, made widely known. And don't come with that "all specs subjects to change" yadda yadda. He already knew where he was. Besides, a word given is a word taken. The allowance (a few hours before the accessories list release) only comes to confirm the shy Sony-like accessories list.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Som fanboys may have been unrealistic about the final cost of a usable Red package.

 

Stephen

 

You're wrong, big player! I already had answered your presumptions. I was never a fanboy. Instead, I cannot say the same on your film format obsession. I don't play your game either.

Edited March 17, 2007 by Patrizio De Sica

[Chris Kenny]

The same game of the big players of electronics when it seemed to play a different role. What do you call to those field production configurations? The customer side?

 

Perhaps the Yes Men don't have guts to say that he had posted that there would be between 20 and 30 prototypes in December and now one month before NAB, there's only the Natasha, Boris, Spike and Frankie. Did I forget anyone?

 

Ah, plus the battery or the LCD, made widely known. And don't come with that "all specs subjects to change" yadda yadda. He already knew where he was. Besides, a word given is a word taken. The allowance (a few hours before the accessories list release) only comes to confirm the shy Sony-like accessories list.

 

They're releasing a 4K camera. At a price I (or, rather, the little company I'm starting with a couple of other people) can afford. Soon. In comparison with that, the pricing and timing issues you mention above are frankly trivial.

 

I suppose if one assumes Red was deliberately misleading people when they made their earlier statements, that might be a reason to get angry. But I see no reason to believe that. I certainly can't see how it would benefit them in any way.

[Patrizio De Sica]

I had already answered your realistic scope on your own. Sony has done your game. Do you want to call ours as unrealistic? Yeah, when a company like Red declared publicly a revolution and it is a revolution of yadda yadda, they're playing your game.

 

Congratulations for your work there at RedYesUser, you've got it! Richard and Holland, you may follow Stephen. If Jared will allow it. :P

 

I suppose if one assumes Red was deliberately misleading people when they made their earlier statements, that might be a reason to get angry. But I see no reason to believe that. I certainly can't see how it would benefit them in any way.

 

They call it marketing!

[Chris Kenny]

They call it marketing!

 

Not very good marketing. I'm pretty sure the Red guys are smarter than that.

 

Incidentally, they just knocked $200 off the price of their battery charger (not reflected on the web site yet), citing a mistake in the web site price list.

 

This means that with the $2500 credit for reservation holders, $17,700 now gets you the camera, LCD, charger, and one battery. Are you really going to complain about that extra $200? Realize that you're now getting a separate 5.6" LCD. The original design was for a smaller fold-out screen.

 

For anyone who wants the EVF and doesn't want the LCD at all, the change is also a major plus, because instead of getting an LCD they don't want for free, they get money to put toward the EVF.

[Patrizio De Sica]

So, the allowance is not a real allowance, just marketing.

 

On accessories, I stand. The timing was perfect. They didn't need to have any data... They could publish their famous list last April when they did related to $17,500. And they did not. Why?... It's obvious.

 

Because their target would never buy or have interest on a camera if the rods cost was up to $2,750. They would buy the new Canon for this price. Don't forget the Red target is or was the 1/3" shooter. DVX user, DV info. Here, the attempt doesn't run well. :D He would never sell 1,500 units over these forum pages.

 

The lenses example was a case study over the market.