Quiet...

[Gary McClurg]

I agree with David on this, let the camera speak.

 

The Internet conflict is all part of viral marketing - those threads with the most extreme opinions being expressed were the ones that had the largest number of people viewing.

 

However, it's now time for things to settle down and people to let decide on how useful the RED camera will be to their future productions.

 

Personally I think its time to lock this thread... and wait until NAB... or really wait until the camera is in the hands of people who can shoot with it... test it... see how the workflow and support... is...

[Tim Pipher]

The fact that Jim Jannard is doing a little gloating and having a little fun is a good sign if you're considering making an investment in his camera. After all, I don't think we'd be hearing from him if he was about to be humiliated at NAB by unveiling a camera that doesn't do what he said it will do.

 

As a former stock broker, if I were analyzing a stock, I'd be reading between the lines, using a little arbitrage, and figure his stock is about to take a big upswing.

[Jay Kelley]

"Ignore them"?

 

You're asking a lot David, but it's a good piece of advice nonetheless. I am a fanboy of RED. As for having nothing critical to say about the camera? There are hundreds and hundreds of posts by me saying things I don' t like and offering ideas. But I did it on a site Jim was more active in, that's only smart.

 

I never complained for the sake of it, I wanted the damn thing changed!! And at times, when it made sense, it was.. That's cool.

 

The big difference here (and you already know this) is that my critisism was done with the goal of assisting RED build a better camera for ME to use. And that was evident in every post. I said what I liked, and what I did not like.

 

It's not the post most of the time.. It's the tone. Fanboys of RED were the most critical of all, since we felt we were assistant designers.. The camera is being built FOR US after all.

 

I have no doubt, feedback and suggestions from the likes of you are read carefully. I also have no doubt that RED has already consulted a number of people in your field. I am not employeed by them, nor do I have special information, just using a little commone sense.

 

If you go to REDUSER you will see even today we are making requests and asking for changes. We are the hardest group to please. We are "FANS" because we like the concept of the camera, and 80% of what we asked for is in it.

 

I fully realize that not everyone on here is the same, and other forums on this site are EXTREMELY helpful. You have helped me a few times and I thank you for that.

 

Jay

[David Mullen ASC]

Truth is that I have more of a problem with nastier critics than the more naive fans. Unless someone is willfully ignorant (which happens), someone who is naive can be educated and informed over time to be less so.. but someone who is personally nasty is just going to be that way for most of their lives. They are probably as equally unpleasant to their waitress at the restaurant or the assistent that comes to work for them, etc. It's just how they engage the world.

 

Ultimately the RED company will have to positively engage more people than just the original enthusiastic buyers. I have no doubt that this camera will show up at many rental houses, for example, and get used for film shooters who don't really care about the details of REDCODE, etc. -- they just want to take it out and shoot with it in a fast, efficient manner and get reliable results that will work in post. They are probably going to make some snap judgements right on the spot about the camera, fair or unfair is not the point. There will be a very wide range of people using this camera beyond the people who hang-out on DVXUSER or DVINFO. Obviously I think RED is going to want to convert some of the film-using crowd, not just sell to DV users for whom this camera is an obvious improvement over DV technology.

 

But for those used to film quality, it's a much harder sell and I assume Jim wants to sell to them. I think the more critical attitude of the film crowd is entirely predictable and understandable, and RED has to start out recognizing that as a factor, not wishing they only behaved more like the positive, enthusiastic DV crowd. Think about it, for the DV crowd, RED is promising a major leap in quality for a minor leap in cost -- but for the film crowd, there is a less obvious sales pitch, mainly the possibility of film quality at lower costs. But that's where natural skepticism kicks in because the high quality of film images, mainly 35mm, is generally a given. So you're starting out discussing a camera with a group of people who are happy with what they've got already, quality-wise, but find it expensive.

[Lance Flores]

Jim, I thought you recently told us to hold our opinions until NAB... which is what we are doing.

<snip>

I think you should let the camera speak for itself at this point rather than rehash old arguments. The fact that there was so much skepticism before the camera was finished should only tell you how much you and the RED team managed to accomplish in such a short time, which you have to admit was a major task. Skepticism can only be a compliment at this point; imagine if you had announced your laundry list of goals a year ago and instead of being skeptical, we went "(yawn)... 4K camera... sounds easy, so why haven't you done it yet?"

 

Now you want to pick a fight with your skeptics, just at the time when you should be wiping the slate clean of old arguments and starting fresh with a real camera that you can show people? Just when the skeptics were starting to be less skeptical?

 

Please, don't go down that path. You'll regret it. It's like tearing a scab that was finally healing.

<snip>

 

I have to agree with David and some of the others. The technology is proven, and with the money you have behind the project there should be little doubt that you can achieve your goals. The only concern I've had is: deliverables and date. Mostly, you guys have suffered from bickering with a lot of very small players in the industry who aren't going to purchase your camera anyway.

 

Instead of cultivating relationships with filmmakers that have a legitimate interest in the technology, you're out arguing with people who are only interested in arguing for the sake of arguing. You just need to make sure the fab line can maintain the die parametrics on repeatable runs, and there is a good interface to the downstream workflow and processing. The proof is in the pudding.

 

Perhaps your marketing department could respond to production companies.

[Jay Kelley]

Truth is that I have more of a problem with nastier critics than the more naive fans. Unless someone is willfully ignorant (which happens), someone who is naive can be educated and informed over time to be less so.. but someone who is personally nasty is just going to be that way for most of their lives. They are probably as equally unpleasant to their waitress at the restaurant or the assistent that comes to work for them, etc. It's just how they engage the world.

 

Ultimately the RED company will have to positively engage more people than just the original enthusiastic buyers. I have no doubt that this camera will show up at many rental houses, for example, and get used for film shooters who don't really care about the details of REDCODE, etc. -- they just want to take it out and shoot with it in a fast, efficient manner and get reliable results that will work in post. They are probably going to make some snap judgements right on the spot about the camera, fair or unfair is not the point. There will be a very wide range of people using this camera beyond the people who hang-out on DVXUSER or DVINFO. Obviously I think RED is going to want to convert some of the film-using crowd, not just sell to DV users for whom this camera is an obvious improvement over DV technology.

 

But for those used to film quality, it's a much harder sell and I assume Jim wants to sell to them. I think the more critical attitude of the film crowd is entirely predictable and understandable, and RED has to start out recognizing that as a factor, not wishing they only behaved more like the positive, enthusiastic DV crowd.

 

I think he will. And to be honest, I think he already has.. We'll know how much he has at NAB. I think the real trick with this camera, are three words: NO MOVING PARTS. I think this has a major impact on maintence, warrenty, etc. For me the trick has always been about what RED does with itself AFTER the camera comes out.

 

I am not at the level you are, but I work with a lot of the same people. When my Lectrosconics mic goes I expect to make a phone call and get things shipping overnight at that moment. It's why I went with that company even though there are cheaper ones around.

 

I have never understood how Jannard will keep his back end customer service flowing well with such low pricing. However, he's got the camera, viewfinder, drives, rails, etc. Perhaps he's more volume oriented than we give him credit for.. Honestly it's out of my league to understand the details of HIS company.

 

What I do know, is that so far I am really impressed with his sense of design and the level of the team he has working with him. Because the camera is 90% software, and that damn sensor, most any improvements can be upgraded later. I am told even the sensor block can me swaped out by RED.

 

We'll see...I am hopeful and excited. As for the film vs. video deal, I don't care.. Never have never will. As a shooter I have always evnied you film guys with your large format lenses and smal DOF. Not to mention your ability to do some beautiful color correction that in my video world, at least up to now, has been difficult or impossible.

 

If I had the money for film, I'd use it. I don't so I pray RED will give me some of the visual possibilities that you guys take for granted.

 

Jay

[Eric Steelberg ASC]

You still have a whole film industry to sell this camera to and you want to start building long-term relationships now, not creating an enemies list, not holding grudges, otherwise you'll find your company marginalized. Panavision and Arri are successful not just because they make good cameras, but because they forge long-term client relationships.

 

Camera designers and managers from Sony, Panavision, Arriflex, Aaton, etc. don't come onto internet forums and get into little arguments with potential customers.

 

And there it is. This is what the business is...relationships. I am very loyal to my vendors, not becuase of the specs of the gear but because of the relationships. And if I'm critical about something they just spent a million doing R&D on, they will listen to what I have to say. After all I will be the one ordering it...or not.

 

Like David said, it's the hypercritical eyes of the working cinematographers whom RED should want to impress the most. So accepting their doubt and citicism over something as potentially groundbreaking as RED may be seems like a small inconvenience to deal with. I see no point in bickering back and forth. If you know your product is good then why even bother arguing? Let the product speak for itself.

 

And keep in mind that as cinematographers we also care about more than just the image. At this point digital aquisition still benefits post people the most. I don't know many DPs who have shot a film digitally who prefer the myraid of cables and support gear to a 1000' mag of film and a lightmeter. What's the benefit of new technology if it slows us down on set, or makes our lives harder by involving us in more post we're already not paid for because we're the only ones who understand the workflow and technology? Delivering an image is only part of our job. We also have a schedule to adhere to and various management duties to take care of during production. We want our tools to just work. And new untested technology can threaten that. So if DPs want to keep asking the hard questions, let them or I suspect you'll see a backlash.

[Ken Cangi]

I'm with David and the others on this. I can't for the life of me understand why you opened this thread. It seems clear that you are trying to incite another heated discussion. What do you possibly think you stand to gain by rubbing our noses in the fact that someone is shooting a film with your camera, and do you actually think we care? It sounds like schoolyard braggadocio.

 

To paraphrase what David said, no one will care how well your camera works if you are so hard to get along with. This isn't a hundred dollar pair of shades that you can toss when they go out of style. It is a twenty plus thousand dollar tool. What concerns me most about your provocative, combative demeanor is how dealing with you on warranty and repair issues will play out. Maybe you don't care about that but you should. Most people - especially professionals with rigorous schedules and budgets - don't want to deal with equipment dealers who act like jerks.

 

BTW, stop dumping on cinematogarphy.com. It makes you look like an ass.

 

P.S. Please don't call my office to bitch me out this time. If you don't like what I said, then you can tell me on this board. As far as I'm concerned, how you behave here is your business card.

 

Regards,

 

Ken Cangi

Edited April 9, 2007 by Ken Cangi

[Jay Kelley]

I'm with David and the others on this. I can't for the life of me understand why you opened this thread. It seems clear that you are trying to incite another heated discussion. What do you possibly think you stand to gain by rubbing our noses in the fact that someone is shooting a film with your camera, and do you actually think we care? It sounds like schoolyard braggadocio.

 

To paraphrase what David said, no one will care how well your camera works if you are so hard to get along with. This isn't a hundred dollar pair of shades that you can toss when they go out of style. It is a twenty plus thousand dollar tool. What concerns me most about your provocative, combative demeanor is how dealing with you on warranty and repair issues will play out. Maybe you don't care about that but you should. Most people - especially professionals with rigorous schedules and budgets - don't want to deal with equipment dealers who act like jerks.

 

BTW, stop dumping on cinematogarphy.com. It makes you look like an ass.

 

P.S. Please don't call my office to bitch me out this time. If you don't like what I said, then you can tell me on this board. As far as I'm concerned, how you behave here is your business card.

 

Regards,

 

Ken Cangi

 

Just for fun, I went back and read all of your posts you have left on this Forum.. Almost every one of them were involved in some sort of debate/fight, or an opinion in which you were reminding everyone why you were right and others were wrong.. Even offering to have a fight with some guy at NAB or telling him to shut the f*ck up. Very impressive.. Not.

 

Quite a history of combative, and somewhat usless posts.

 

Jim's moved on Ken.. The camera is about to enter the world, and something tells me the hot-head, in-your-face, always right, critisism from certain people (like you) on this board will not make the smallest dent into RED's success one way or the other. Besides, I look at losing customers such as yourself as a step in the right direction. Guys like you are the ones always bitching to customer service anyway.

 

The camera will do well.. It's almost ready to go, and in spite of your bitching and moaning about everything, they will most likely be pretty successful.. Which means everything you had to say was for the most part... Worthless.... Big surprise..

 

:)

 

Sorry David, but the only thing worse than not getting long terms relationships, are having having them with the wrong people. Sometimes it's about knowing who to work with and who to avoid. I think Ken is one of those people you were speaking of.. A review of his writings will show this.

 

Jay

 

Don't worry Ken, I won't be calling you... :)

[Ken Cangi]

Just for fun, I went back and read all of your posts you have left on this Forum.. Almost every one of them were involved in some sort of debate/fight, or an opinion in which you were reminding everyone why you were right and others were wrong.. Even offering to have a fight with some guy at NAB or telling him to shut the f*ck up. Very impressive.. Not.

 

Quite a history of combative, and somewhat usless posts.

 

Jim's moved on Ken.. The camera is about to enter the world, and something tells me the hot-head, in-your-face, always right, critisism from certain people (like you) on this board will not make the smallest dent into RED's success one way or the other. Besides, I look at losing customers such as yourself as a step in the right direction. Guys like you are the ones always bitching to customer service anyway.

 

The camera will do well.. It's almost ready to go, and in spite of your bitching and moaning about everything, they will most likely be pretty successful.. Which means everything you had to say was for the most part... Worthless.... Big surprise..

 

:)

 

Sorry David, but the only thing worse than not getting long terms relationships, are having having them with the wrong people. Sometimes it's about knowing who to work with and who to avoid. I think Ken is one of those people you were speaking of.. A review of his writings will show this.

 

Jay

 

Don't worry Ken, I won't be calling you... :)

 

Do you wipe Jim's mouth for him too, Jay? Considering that the guy in that thread was threatening physical violence, "shut the f--k up" was a pretty mild response. Your post reminds me of the Bill O'Reilly school of confrontation - badger and berate those who don't agree with you, and then shut off their mic. And before you go off judging my use of the f bomb in that instance, you might want to ask Jannard how professional his phone call to me was. I was kind in my public portrayal of his behavior that day. There is a difference between being politically inncorrect and being a bully. The only redeeming thing about this post is your promise not to call me. I appreciate it.

 

And for the record, not that I haven't already told Jim this several times, I sincerely hope that his project is a success, in spite of the way he has behaved in these forums.

 

"Guys like you are the ones always bitching to customer service anyway."

 

And you know this how? In addition to your innumerable social skills, are you also clairvoyant?

Edited April 9, 2007 by Ken Cangi