VES poll of most influential efx movies

[Leo Anthony Vale]

Heavily recommended- it's RIGHT up your alley and by far one of the best effects bibles ever. There's even a comment in it from Tom Howard about how film is on the out. It was made before STAR WARS!!!

 

I'm thinking I might have read that in 'Invisible Art : The Legends of Movie Matte Painting'

by Vaz, Mark Cotta

 

http://syndetics.com/index.aspx?isbn=08118...t&type=rn12

 

http://syndetics.com/index.aspx?ISBN=08118...;upc=&oclc=[/img]

 

While about matte paintings, there is a big section on Papa Day and Peter Ellenshaw which has a lot of material about 'Thief...'

 

Highly recommended.

[Guest Tim Partridge]

The book is John Brosnan's MOVIE MAGIC, from 1975.

 

If you like the Cotta Vaz book, then check out ELLENSHAW UNDER GLASS.

[Matthew Buick]

How about 'Death Becomes Her' (1992) ? That was the first instance of photorealistic human skin.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

I'm thinking I might have read that in 'Invisible Art : The Legends of Movie Matte Painting'

by Vaz, Mark Cotta

 

I checked the Vaz book out of the library again.

& darn but it was Larry Butler who devised the blue screen traveling mattes.

Tom Howard built the optical printer & probably did the actual printing.

 

Dr.Kalmus tried to convince the producers that Butler's process wouldn't work.

 

Then recalled that 'Ben Hur' had the first use of the color difference TM system.

Petro Vlahos developed it to salvage the blue screen shots.

 

The tests were used in the movie. The studio didn't bother having

[Guest Tim Partridge]

Leo,

 

This is what Tom Howard told John Brosnan, for the book MOVIE MAGIC in 1973:

 

"I did a great deal of work on THIEF OF BAGDAD. I had a hundred travelling matte shots in that film and I'm credited with according to Kine Weekly [ a film trade magazine], being the inventor of the travelling matte process in colour. But an American, Lawrence Butler, took the Academy Award for the effects in THIEF... The picture was started in Britain but due to the war Korda had to complete it in the States. There was another Englishman who worked on the effects apart from myself. His name was Johnny Mills and he did all the hanging miniatures. But neither of us even received a credit on the picture. Butler had actually supervised the mechanical effects, or physical effects as we call them in England, but he was the only one who got a credit... So he got the Academy Award as well".

[Leo Anthony Vale]

This is what Tom Howard told John Brosnan, for the book MOVIE MAGIC in 1973:

 

"I did a great deal of work on THIEF OF BAGDAD. I had a hundred travelling matte shots in that film and I'm credited with according to Kine Weekly [ a film trade magazine], being the inventor of the travelling matte process in colour. But an American, Lawrence Butler, took the Academy Award for the effects in THIEF... The picture was started in Britain but due to the war Korda had to complete it in the States. There was another Englishman who worked on the effects apart from myself. His name was Johnny Mills and he did all the hanging miniatures. But neither of us even received a credit on the picture. Butler had actually supervised the mechanical effects, or physical effects as we call them in England, but he was the only one who got a credit... So he got the Academy Award as well".

 

Looking at that quote, I'm fairly sure I haven't read the Brosnan book, nor does the libraty system have it.

 

So there must be a third source I read that in.

 

I'm inclined to accept TH's word.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

Then recalled that 'Ben Hur' had the first use of the color difference TM system.

Petro Vlahos developed it to salvage the blue screen shots.

 

The tests were used in the movie. The studio didn't bother having...

 

The color difference process uses a synthetic blue seperation consisting of the green seperation and a color difference matte made by printing a blue seperation from the OCN bipacked with a green positive.

The resulting element is bipacked with the green seperation positive and used as a blue seperation.

Since the blue backing is now black, transparent objects can be used.

The ultimatte system is based on this principle.

 

This was the process used at ILM and for most bluescreen work from the 60s on.

LBAbbott at Fox and Technicolr London used the old process, and got good results.

 

So Vlahos makes test composites of all the blue screen shots in 'Ben Hur' to see if this process will work.

& he keeps waiting for the go ahead to make the final composites for the movie, but it never comes.

It turns out the the studio used the tests in the film.

 

I found this in the text of an acceptence speech for the 1987 SMPTE Technicolr,Dr.Kalmus Gold Medal for acheivment. It was in a 1987 issue of SMPTE Journal.

 

PS Maybe the Tom Howard/ 'Theif of Bagdad reference was in the Michael Powell memoir.

[Guest Tim Partridge]

Yeah- There are too many reference books that seem to contradict each other as to how the process came about, but it is somewhat universally accepted that Petro Vlahos brought it together for the technique as known up until optical bluescreen disappeared. Sadly, Howard's effort is a bit unsung (although he rightfully won Oscars for BLITHE SPIRIT and TOM THUMB, which had some of the best pre-digital compositing I have seen). A few of the old Technicolor "boys" from the 1930s assured me that Tom Howard was the guy behind THIEF's compositing (and Howard went on to run the Borehamwood MGM lab and effects department for many years).

 

You should get the Brosnan book Leo- talks about Wally Veevers working on THIEF OF BAGDAD as well as Tom Howard's mention of the "automotion" process on TOM THUMB, which he even admits he doesn't understand!

 

Where do you stand on Abbott's TORA TORA TORA process blue screen technique that was the seed for Apogee's The Blue Max? Could it and it's benefits be adapted today for digital compositing?

[Leo Anthony Vale]

Yeah- There are too many reference books that seem to contradict each other as to how the process came about, but it is somewhat universally accepted that Petro Vlahos brought it together for the technique as known up until optical bluescreen disappeared.

 

Where do you stand on Abbott's TORA TORA TORA process blue screen technique that was the seed for Apogee's The Blue Max? Could it and it's benefits be adapted today for digital compositing?

 

Hayes' '3-D Movies' isn't quite as bad as Hayes&Carr's 'Wide screen Movies', since most of it is his giving personal opinions about most 3-D movies made. The section on older European processes is near totally wrong about the various formats and processes.

But in discussing 'Them', the crew members he's talked to can't agree whether or not it was filmed in 3-D, if so was 3-D dropped during production, if not was it edited in 3-d or flat.

 

Here's a Howard blue screen USPatent from 1963:

 

http://www.google.com/patents?id=JgFsAAAAEBAJ&dq=3260563

 

Column 1, lines 27-32 refer to 1941-42 British Trade Journals where Howard describes the process.

 

Vlahos worked for the Motion Picture Research Council, which was funded by the major hollywood studios.

So he was well positioned for getting proper credit & he was patenting his processes.

 

& here's the Apogee Blue Max:

 

http://www.google.com/patents?id=C_IrAAAAEBAJ&dq=3260563

 

It references the above patent with a bunch of others.

 

The front projection blue screens give very clean narrow color backings on a large scale for sure.

Front projection has a problem with close ups. if the background is out of focus, shadow of the foreground can be visible as a soft "matte line" around the foreground.

 

But the big rub is use of moving cameras & reference marks on the backing for tracking.

It might be possible to project a plate with reference marks on it, but camera moves would be limited to pans and tilts.

 

So it maybe has a limited use.

[Guest Tim Partridge]

Leo,

 

That's very interesting stuff!

 

I would be curious to see a digital front projection composite regardless, just for nerd sake. ;)

[John Holland]

Tim .i know Tom Howard was head of effects at MGM Borehamwood , but did they have a "Metrocolor" lab there , i have never managed to find that out , years ago i asked Erwin Hillier who shot " Operation Crossbow" at the studios and i think maybe a couple other of "Metrocolor" movies , but i am sure he said Technicolor London did the processing . Would love to know the answer if MGM did have a lab there .

[Max Jacoby]

because when the Wachowski brothers pitched

I do believe they need to be called the 'Wachowski Siblings' actually ;)

[Guest Tim Partridge]

Tim .i know Tom Howard was head of effects at MGM Borehamwood , but did they have a "Metrocolor" lab there , i have never managed to find that out , years ago i asked Erwin Hillier who shot " Operation Crossbow" at the studios and i think maybe a couple other of "Metrocolor" movies , but i am sure he said Technicolor London did the processing . Would love to know the answer if MGM did have a lab there .

 

Brian Pitchard's website says there's only been Metrocolor at Highbury:

http://www.brianpritchard.com/British%20Labs.htm

 

Even 2001 was timed at Metrocolor in California, while most of the initial lab work was done at Technicolor over here (interview with Con Pederson):

http://www.awn.com/mag/issue4.03/4.03pages...tzpederson.php3

[John Holland]

Tim. the highbury Metro lab , was Kays Labs and bought by Metrocolor USA in the early 80s and renamed Metrocolor.

[Guest Tim Partridge]

I see- I take it this is where A VIEW TO A KILL was printed?

[John Holland]

American prints struck at Metro labs L.A, Uk and Europe prob. done at Ranks Denham where processing and rushes where done .