ARRI VS. PANAVISION

[Michael Lehnert]

There is nothing like the extreme engineering that composes the arri cameras. The German are amazing, like always.

 

Just a side note here, as all important aspects reg. Panavision service/accessibility/pricing and Aaton mag-loading have already been mentioned: Maybe it's my German passport and education from there, but I always shriek when people raise this "German über-engineering superiority thing", as if anything coming out of German companies would automatically propose the final solution for its markets. This really has become a self-perpetuating marketing myth based on nationalising technology in a way that is not only impossible from a global business and R&D view, but also simple-minded from a cosmopolitan "flow of ideas" perspective and the usual discussions with international DoPs that goes into designing these cameras.

 

ARRI has and will produced phantastic gear perfect for some film projects, less fitting for other film projects. They might well become a monopoly in the future, but I would just not say that there is nothing else like it available. That would essentially mean that they have and will out-innovate and better-engineer firms like Panavision and Aaton and Moviecam. And I would not really subscribe to that.

 

Why? From an historical innovations perspective over the past 112 years of cinematography, ARRI was actually quite a late-comer in many fields and had not only a longer learning curve than other companies, but was also not that accessible when discussing R&D with practitioners. Here in Europe, their business practices towards patent-innovators and fellow competitors were not always commented favourably, esp. towards Aaton. One should also not forget that it was the acquisition (or competitive elimination, depends on the perspective) of Moviecam and bringing the mind and inventiveness of Fritz Gabriel Bauer in-house that basically brought their 35mm line back on a par with competitors like Pana and Aaton.

 

To make a practical example: As I am not qualified enough to talk about 35, I will stick to 16 (despite going OT, I hope you pardon me), but the Arriflex 16SR-series was conceptually (!) already one camera generation behind Eclair and Aaton when it launched in 1974. Yet it nevertheless carved out its market segment well and became the HS-cam of choice after Eclair's CV16 disappeared. But that was not due to being better engineered. Engineering-wise, I think the great-but-forgotten Bolex 16 Pro and current Aaton X-series achieves much better what they are setting out to be (!) than the SR-series did. And it took 30 years and external (Austrian... the irony) talent to bring their 16mm line up to its competitors' level with the leapfroggingly good 416, especially regarding frame stability / reduction of frame variance.

 

I think tech talk would profit from leaving last-century jingoistic rhetorics behind, unless, of course, it's meant as what appeared to be a joke on all of us, but heated everyone's mood nevertheless...

[John Brawley]

I just worked on a commercial and the AC was constantly ranting about how much he hated working with Panavision. He kept pointing out the advantages of say an ARRI 535 or a 435. I don't remember which Panavision make we were using could have been a Platinum or a G II.

 

Finally what does everyone think of the new ARRI HD camera?

 

Thanks

 

 

Chris, I think it's very telling that it was the AC that was moaning. I think that there's a big difference between the cameras from an ac and then from an operator's point of view. There's no doubt that the Panavision viewing system and viewfinders are very very good for example. But they are a bit more finicky to attend to and lace up in comparison.

 

But I always marvel at just how many cases they seem to have for a kit ! And they weigh a ton !

 

The Arri D20 is a really interesting camera. I was lucky enough to shoot with one earlier in the year and I actually really liked it. I ended up shooting with it just like I would with a film camera. Lighting by eye and meter and rarely referring to the HD monitor. I did some tests in pre and worked out the FC level I wanted to be at and then forgot about looking at the split. It was the fastes and easiest HD shoot I've ever done ! The optical viewfinder is nice and it's great having that 35mm DOF without the grain of the P+S adaptor. I guess Red will give them a run for their money, but i actually really liked the pictures I got out of it, without having to do much. I even used a Lens baby with it...for hilarious pictures...see below...

 

yes..that is a lens on the front ;-)

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbrawley/4...57600093842073/

 

jb

[Hal Smith]

Maybe it's my German passport and education from there, but I always shriek when people raise this "German über-engineering superiority thing", as if anything coming out of German companies would automatically propose the final solution for its markets. This really has become a self-perpetuating marketing myth based on nationalising technology in a way that is not only impossible from a global business and R&D view, but also simple-minded from a cosmopolitan "flow of ideas" perspective and the usual discussions with international DoPs that goes into designing these cameras.

I have experience with several different areas of German engineering. One very different thing about German companies is that they tend to be very "top down" in their attitudes towards users. I have good friend in a senior engineering position at a large firm that was purchased by a German company. My friend's company builds products with a lot of software and firmware in them. Previous to their acquistion, all software was developed within the product group. Now they have to get any software modifications/upgrades approved by an office in Germany with three D.Ing's in it - who know almost nothing about the product lines being develop over here. Product development is now ensnared in a bureaucracy that sits on everything. And - my friend has been told that any career progress from now on will be hampered if he doesn't learn German even though his company's products are sold in places around the world where English, not German, tends to be the common language of engineering.

[Michael Lehnert]

I am afraid that after 23 years in Germany, that is not an atypical example at all. You will also find a certain top-down approach in social relations, something which I realised since leaving Germany is very difficult to make understandable (and also identify as being a potential problem in mixed teams) to people here in the UK or even across the river Rhine in Switzerland. When assembling teams, I learned to compose them very thought-through in advance to avoid any unnecessary friction that is foreseeable to develop. And when talking to other people from all over the planet, I had to learn that this is not my own singular and opinionated perspective at all... :huh:

But of course, you also have many individuals from Germany that are not at all like that when abroad! Complications as you describe them, Hal, usually turn up when a cultural collective is invoked and involved.

At least I can see from your post, Hal, that German "Leitkultur" is still alive and kicking, language-wise even in corporate FDIs :rolleyes: .

 

Did ARRI, by the way, establish a full subsidiary in India? I know that this was something cinematographers in Mumbai were asking ARRI to do for years, and one might think that a market more voluminous than Hollywood with enormous creative prospects and growth potential, plus an existing 95% product penetration and 100% brand-awareness when it comes to camera gear would be something any company would be leaping at like a falling-over Panther dolly. When reading through German media, though, India does not appear in business news, while China is of course regarded as either a big thread or big market ? the launch of ARRInews in Mandarin seems to indicate that ARRI will indeed forego India for China... a strategic mistake?

[Jon Kukla]

as if anything coming out of German companies would automatically propose the final solution for its markets.

 

:unsure: No offense, but that probably wasn't the best way to phrase it...

[Michael Lehnert]

Jon,

 

I do fully agree with you :mellow: !

 

I chose this formulation with clear intention to put the rather self-contained one-sentence post from Zhivago Atala from Brazil, namely that "...There is nothing like the extreme engineering that composes the arri cameras. The German are amazing, like always..." into some contextual perspective: camera-technically, engineering-wise, socially, and historically ? and this was done esp. in respect to my personal and professional background (which I disclosed as far as I find it appropriate in this place) and my family's history that continues to be written despite "German extreme engineering" that was "amazing, like always".

 

Feel free to read more about German über-engineering here, if you havn't already. I tried to put similar sentences into context here and here.