Indiana Jones 4: Panavision anamorphic, Super 35, or HD?

Michael Lehnert · February 17, 2008

I agree on the storage effect issues. I really start to wonder regarding that mystery frozen EXR batch..?!

As regards remaining Vision family film stocks: to my knowledge, 5274 (V-200) and 5279 (V-500) have not been discontinued and can be supplied on request to the UK ? can't obviously comment on how supply chain works in Hollywood... B)

Matthew Buick · February 17, 2008

Perhaps a huge production like Indy 4 could have some EXR (or even some Eastmancolor!!) made up especially.

John Holland · February 17, 2008

Matthew whatever the code name is EXR. Vision 1,2,3 .Its all Eastmancolor.

Matthew Buick · February 17, 2008

As long as they can still squeeze the Eastmancolor out of whatever, I'm happy.

Fredrik Backar FSF · February 18, 2008

Yes I too am wondering about the storage bit. probably the old 200 exr if anything could be the only thing to make it in longtime freeze, and then maybe in combination with the 79.

That would probably be a nice mix.

A nice rumour to ponder over though :-)

Lets wait till the AC about it comes out and see :-)

John Holland · February 18, 2008

This has to be rubbish about shooting EXR .Huge budget film like this isnt going to take the risk of using out of date frozen stock !! . Shock horror could be Fuji ?? . Matthew its about time you checked out the Fuji stocks you might find something you like ?

Paul Bruening · February 18, 2008

Hello all,

Mathew has brought up an interesting point: How hard is it for the yellow god to stir up a pot of old formula? It's just goo smeared out over rolls of plastic and punched out to size. It would likely cost a pile of fromage to get done. Yet, given the absurdly high costs of production these days, it probably isn't that big an issue. I wonder if Kodak could go into the boutique film stock business and make by-request films. How great would that be for me to buy up short ends of some crazy-ass stock and shoot a movie out of it?

David Mullen ASC · February 18, 2008

I doubt it is as simple as that, retooling a line for an old formula. For one thing, since you'd have to keep making the current products, you'd need to have a whole other assembly line built for the old product. And even a big-budget film is going to balk at spending an extra couple of million extra on getting an old line of stocks restarted at Kodak.

Paul Bruening · February 18, 2008

Sure, I oversimplified a little. But, at the same time, there's not that much retooling needed. It's not like a car manufacturer where all the tools and dies have to be recut. The same machinery types run all of the products. It's very similar to print machinery. While they are extremely precise, they are also adjustable. It seems they could take just one line of them and run them for specialty stocks. Mostly what would change are the formulas used in each layer. They would have to limit the design variations. For example, it has to be done with three color layers or less... no four or higher layers... no specialty sizes where the cut and punch machine would have to be retooled... like that.

It was just some random musing, after all.

Michael Lehnert · February 18, 2008

John:

:lol: :D

there's nothing like coming home from a long day and reading a one-liner post that makes you LOL ROTF... thank for that - you made my evening well-mooded.

Sanity + humour is always a great reality check.

Paul:

The costs AND the production complexity at this point of time for the cine-film market are prohibitive. Although the machinery seems interchangeable, the issues lie in the emulsion, the base, the layering, the pre-running, the quality control, the storing and of course, the selling in-time before expiry. It's not that Kodak is wipping up magic portions like Gallic druids on demand: most film stock types are produced in one go and then stored for several months; so it's not that 7217 is produced today and 7218 tomorrow. And yet we are talking about the same technology generation of material here.

Setting up all these intricate aspects for old formulas involves a lot of know-how, and THAT is far more difficult to re-adjust than just a machine park.

Personally, I think that should Kodak prevail with its photochemical strategy and carve out a niche were people (both users & viewers) will appreciate the material aesthetics of cine-film in an industry world THEN MOSTLY MAKING movies on video formats (so, let's say, in 10-15 years earliest... I am in a prediction mood tonight), THEN this idea of yours that has been discussed here on several occassion might make sense:

one would have current VisionX+n technology that would accommodate the required competitive edge with video formats; and additionally, one would have one film stock family that would hark back to cine-film characteristics of "yesteryear" more "truly" associated with cine-film (as those who think that Vision3 looks like video say... I am not one of those...).

But this potential "yesteryear" family would probably not be an old recipe but a newly designed and eco- and economies-of-scale-compliant chemical cocktail that emulates "olden days film look".

But as I said, this scenario above would be with plenty of preconditions attached to make both managerial, marketing, manufacturing, artistic and aesthetic sense. And I don't see this really manifesting in light of Vision3 and associated DI magic that enables more means than possible in emulating specific film stock looks.

It would actually make more sense for Kodak for programme high-fidelity plug-ins that really emulate the characteristics of specific previously available film stocks (like Technicolor, Eastmancolor Negative or ? gasp - EXR) WHENU USING current-generation cine-film, like Vision4 or 5 or whatever will be sold then. Here, Kodak could tie-in its know-how and saleable products really synergetically, plus create a new divisional business that is "up-to-date" with the digital trends...

Let's see what happens in a decade or so...

Matthew Buick · February 18, 2008

It would actually make more sense for Kodak for programme high-fidelity plug-ins that really emulate the characteristics of specific previously available film stocks (like Technicolor, Eastmancolor Negative or ? gasp - EXR) WHENU USING current-generation cine-film, like Vision4 or 5 or whatever will be sold then. Here, Kodak could tie-in its know-how and saleable products really synergetically, plus create a new divisional business that is "up-to-date" with the digital trends...

Let's see what happens in a decade or so...

That's a great idea! You should email that to 'em. I'd buy those plug-ins, shoot Vision, and colour correct without having to use stupid Pro8mm, and it'd look completely realistic because the corrected footage would have originated on film.

Imagine it! Everything from X-Back to EXR! A true John Pytlak-grade idea. :)

I miss the man, which reminds me; my grandfather passed away of Liver cancer on Wednesday. :(

RIP.

Michael Lehnert · February 18, 2008

I am sorry to hear about your personal loss, Matthew :mellow: .

As regards plug-ins: Thanks, but that isn't my idea, as folks from the Red User forum surely will point out soonish! Plug-ins that adjust the way you "dial-up" the color grading are already around. It was recently discussed here in respect to some Technicolor formats.

My point is just that the existing plug-ins are of inferior quality and nowhere near exact or even closereproduction of that material. Those Technicolor plug-ins look like Circuschrome! It would require more in-depth research between scanned projection prints and camera originals to truly sample to material's nuances and then deduct their composing color values. Based on such a cooperation which would combine Kodak's R&D and the archives of the George Eastman House plus whatever is vaulted in the cellars of major production studios, some truly high-fidelity plug-ins could be programmed based on the characteristics and according cinematographic behaviour of currently sold film stocks. If an interlinked data relation could be programmed based on permanent cine-film values, adjusting those plug-ins with new generations of films stocks such as the upcoming Vision3 and beyond, would become relatively easy: so the R&D effort is more initial, with less ongoing costs associated as the products mature in their product cycles.

Trust me, I would love to whip out a PowerPoint presentation on that and make a business case to those responsible for strategic product development at Kodak. Having been trained by Apple, I safeguarded a certain "keep-things-simple" philosophy that works great in the marketplace and socially reproduces innovation in a great and everchanging way. And based on my experience with the late John Pytlack, I personally think that those in Rochester do not get enough kudos for what they actually do. Kodak has great potential, but something internally is hindering them at setting it free. Polaroid had the same potential, and the same problem, and we know how that ended now.

Yeah, working in Kodak's strategy team would be really great. I would actually work for free to get this job. Well, cover the bills... But in this particular case, however, I truly lack the necessary contacts to network myself towards such a job. So I am afraid I won't be able to help you, Matthew, to get your movie stuff as you want it to be! Sorry!

But hey, I welcome any hints :D .

Cheers,

-Michael

Matthew Buick · February 20, 2008

I am sorry to hear about your personal loss, Matthew :mellow: .

As regards plug-ins: Thanks, but that isn't my idea, as folks from the Red User forum surely will point out soonish! Plug-ins that adjust the way you "dial-up" the color grading are already around. It was recently discussed here in respect to some Technicolor formats.

My point is just that the existing plug-ins are of inferior quality and nowhere near exact or even closereproduction of that material. Those Technicolor plug-ins look like Circuschrome! It would require more in-depth research between scanned projection prints and camera originals to truly sample to material's nuances and then deduct their composing color values. Based on such a cooperation which would combine Kodak's R&D and the archives of the George Eastman House plus whatever is vaulted in the cellars of major production studios, some truly high-fidelity plug-ins could be programmed based on the characteristics and according cinematographic behaviour of currently sold film stocks. If an interlinked data relation could be programmed based on permanent cine-film values, adjusting those plug-ins with new generations of films stocks such as the upcoming Vision3 and beyond, would become relatively easy: so the R&D effort is more initial, with less ongoing costs associated as the products mature in their product cycles.

Trust me, I would love to whip out a PowerPoint presentation on that and make a business case to those responsible for strategic product development at Kodak. Having been trained by Apple, I safeguarded a certain "keep-things-simple" philosophy that works great in the marketplace and socially reproduces innovation in a great and everchanging way. And based on my experience with the late John Pytlack, I personally think that those in Rochester do not get enough kudos for what they actually do. Kodak has great potential, but something internally is hindering them at setting it free. Polaroid had the same potential, and the same problem, and we know how that ended now.

Yeah, working in Kodak's strategy team would be really great. I would actually work for free to get this job. Well, cover the bills... But in this particular case, however, I truly lack the necessary contacts to network myself towards such a job. So I am afraid I won't be able to help you, Matthew, to get your movie stuff as you want it to be! Sorry!

But hey, I welcome any hints :D .

Cheers,

-Michael