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It's that darn office scene with the huge windows


DavidSloan

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Salut, fellow cinephiles: This is my first post in your wonderful board. :)

 

A bit about myself: I'm a 26 years old cinematography student in NY. My practical experience is limited, although I have shot a few things which have turned out well. Some of my favorite cinematographers are Sven Nykvist, Gordon Willis, Darius Khondji, and Greg Toland.

 

My question today concerns lighting an office scene where the actor sits in front of his desk, having a phone conversation. The windows are floor to ceiling, and we will be shooting this during the day. The director's wish is to start the scene in a wide master shot, having the actor silhouetted against the window, and to dolly in while he's having his conversation so we eventually see his face.

 

I think I will shoot 7245, for this scene. My plan, right now, is to either have a practical on the table so when the dolly reaches a certain point the actor will strike the practical. Or, another possibility is to attach a piece of b-board to the back of the dolly so as we get closer his face gradually gets filled in.

 

I would love to hear some of your knowledgable comments, and if anyone has experienced shooting a scene like this, I'd love to hear how you went about it.

 

Thanks a lot! B)

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Do you want the color temp difference between the windows and the practical?

 

One concern is knowing how bright the windows will be; if they are too bright, then the practical might not do enough, and if they are not bright enough, you won't be able to use 7245.

 

Can you shoot some lighting tests, maybe with a still camera on location?

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Hey David: I figured that the little bit of orange light from the practical will be fine...do you think it might be distracting?

 

If the windows are extremely bright I'll definitely have to have a strong instrument to simulate the practical. Now that I'm thinking about it...I don't think I can do it with the practical alone considering I'm shooting 7245 with bright windows in the background.

 

Is the idea with the b-board just plain stupid?

 

Thank you! B)

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This is pretty stylised stuff- unmotivated gradual brightening of actors faces in an otherwise ordinary, naturalistic environmment?? Striking a practical on cue?? Why can't he just look into the 5500K window light at the "revelation" point in the script? KEEP IT SIMPLE. :)

 

I think if you want our best answers you'll have to tell us what happens in the script. My initial thoughts were the same as David's with regardto colour temperature- why does it take the orange glow of a mundane lightbulb to light up this office workers face?? Subliminal Marxist commentary on worker oppression?? I miss Pauline Kael...

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Hey,

 

what about: a blonde with some 1/4 ctb striking on to the beadboard when the man strikes the practical. The problem with this is controlling the spill, this may look very unatural.

Or how high are the ceilings? Can you hang some thing from there? Is the ceiling in the shot?

 

The practical can have a cool white globe in it. A flourecent bulb that screws on to a regular socket. They can be pretty bright at short distances.

 

What about using 7246?

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Fstop-having him look into the window is an interesting suggestion that I will take into consideration. My question to you is: why that is any less "on cue" than striking a practical? Also, when is striking a practical on film not "on cue?" What is not "on cue" in a film, period? As far as the deeper underlying meaning of the scene is concerned, me feelings are that it's purely subjective. Right now I want to know what I can do, practically speaking. Once I know what can be done I will assess if it is right for the character's motivation, but thank you for taking that into account.

 

 

@Cris Moris: How about instead of the blondie into the b-board, pointing an instrument directly at his face, and the table, with the 1/4 ctb?

 

My concern with the 7246 is that I might have to ND.

 

@David-Can I shoot lighting tests with any film stock that has the same ISO, or do I need to special order the still camera stock version of the 7245?

 

Thanks a lot guys!

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Hey, Carlos. I was aware of RGB, but I was wondering if I can just purchase a roll of say, Fuji ISO 50, at the local photo store and use that. Would that that roll give me some results that will steer me in the right direction or must I go for the RGB?

 

Thanks. B)

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Mr. Sloan,

 

"@Cris Moris: How about instead of the blondie into the b-board, pointing an instrument directly at his face, and the table, with the 1/4 ctb?"

 

Sure, if its an option. But my concern is where are you going to hide such a light? Are there cubicles in this office? Its hard to determine the best way to shoot this with out a visual of the location.

But anything is possible.

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Fstop-having him look into the window is an interesting suggestion that I will take into consideration. My question to you is: why that is any less "on cue" than striking a practical? Also, when is striking a practical on film not "on cue?" What is not "on cue" in a film, period? As far as the deeper underlying meaning of the scene is concerned, me feelings are that it's purely subjective. Right now I want to know what I can do, practically speaking. Once I know what can be done I will assess if it is right for the character's motivation, but thank you for taking that into account.

No doubt, It's art, Darling!, but my philosophy is KEEP IT SIMPLE- Thing with the window light above all else is that it's the simplest, and doesn't hold the bottom lighting connotative cliches that practical posesses (especially at a different colour temperature) although that's not to say it doesn't carry it's own brand of poetic heavyhandedness. However, best to make things easier for yourself, is all- your poor actor on take 4 will find looking out a window more appealing than hovering over a bright photoflood pretending that their eyes aren't stinging.

 

Anyway- go with your gut instinct- just don't overcomplicate (as it'll overwork you) and you'll be fine! :)

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I think you can motivate an actor to reach over and turn on a lamp; I've seen it in many movies in rooms where the light has faded into dusk (see "Red" for example). It just doesn't make much sense in bright daytime -- you have to believe that the actor needs to turn on that lamp for some reason. I'd consider gelling the windows so that the real practical reads realistically bright when it turns on. Then you can also consider using 200 ASA tungsten stock and either playing the daylight blue-ish or gelling the windows with 85ND.

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Sloan,

 

I know that fuji velvia 50 is very saturated. I don't know what the 7245 looks like. (am a video guy emerging into the film world) if they are equivalents in some sort of way shape or form, then by all means, the resulting image should provide you with enough info on what the result would be in the 7245 and then light judiciously. (gel/light/practical/nd/etc).

 

 

C.

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Maybe I am on left field on this suggestion, but are there any blinds in the office? could you put up some blinds? and maybe haze the office just a little bit for the master shot so you see ray's of lights coming in and breaking (cookie) the back of the office?

 

?

 

 

C.-

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Time of day may come in to play here, I'm not sure. Can you time the shoot

for the the right light, daylight through the windows. What about putting a photo

type light in the practical. Say say 75 or 100 watts? My mind tells me to use large overhead

 

diffused light(not too soft because you have to have a balance between the

windows and the overhead light. Fill with reflectors from window. It would be nice

to match time of day with overhead diffused light(but I guess maybe too time

consuming). Maybe practical should have less wattage than suggested. Color temp.

between two light sources and testing with stills sounds great too. Some where

someone told me that the average office has "400" lux rating(but whats average off

ice)? What about using Kodak vision film(200ASA).I'm just starting to study Kodak

movie films and I'm learning cinematography so if I'm just batting in the wind

here,so if I'm way off course just rip me up! I'll consider it as a learning exper-

ence. I'm an old vietnam ranger anyway,so no problem! I'm thinking of the over-

head diffused light as being directional,white reflectors lying on floor would re-

flect some of the overhead light back into the actors face(white floor would have

same effect). You know you could also put a dimmer on the practical to control

it. Your prolem is that you do not want the practical too bright for the film emu-

lsion and at the same time bright enough to light your subject. What about fix-

ing "Inky" bulb inside light source(practical,socket for inky). I know also that

shiny board reflectors can be used to bounce light through windows. I guess if

all else fails that gels too can be the answer. Best wishes for solution.

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@David: I love your suggestion of shooting tungsten and not correcting the daylight. That never even crossed my mind. If I get a stock test that will definitely be one of the things I test. I also think you're right about turning on a practical with a brightly lit background-it just doesn't make sense.

 

Right now I'm thinking about NDing the window while aiming for it to be two stops hotter then the subject. I then want to let the uncorrected daylight come in. My actor's key will be an instrument with 1/4 CTO on it, who's purpose it will be to simulate a practical that is sitting on his table. What do you guys think?

 

@Carlos-I love your suggestion of the Haze, too. But I'm seriously thinking that I don't want that extremely bright window anymore.

 

Wow this board beats any book!

 

Thanks guys.

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I'm guessing what you mean is that the actor's back is to the window, at first in silhouette and then filled with light as you dolly in. You didn't really say how he's positioned.

 

I'm also for "keeping it simple" -- does his back have to be to the window? Can he be positioned sidways, profile to window? The dolly move could then arc or angle to come around the side, revealing his face naturally side-lit from the window. Maybe in conjunction with a slight iris pull or light that fades up.

 

Remember that staging/blocking is one of the basic tools of cinematography (lighting, staging, framing, imaging). Nine times out of ten the solution to a problem is to avoid it in the first place.

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@Michael: yes his back is to the window; I apologize for not specifically articulating that. The side-lit angle sounds nice, but the director was very specific about the frame...otherwise I might have opted for what you suggested, right off the bat.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful comment, though.

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What about a Kino mounted on the dolly under/over the camera, so as the dolly pushes in the kino illuminates the subject's back. Do we ever see his/her face?

The kino might not have enough output but it may give you enough to get some detail in.

 

Just a thought.

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Maybe you could have the subject MOSTLY in silhouette, and as you dolly in the dark details in the face simply become more apparent. If there's a slight bounce or rim light catching part of the face to reveal detail, it will be pretty small in the wide shot and you'll still have that low-key, silhouette-y look.

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What about a Kino mounted on the dolly under/over the camera, so as the dolly pushes in the kino illuminates the subject's back. Do we ever see his/her face?

The kino might not have enough output but it may give you enough to get some detail in.

 

Just a thought.

I'm sorry Cris, I think you misunderstood. His face is to the camera, his back is to the huge windows behind him.

 

@Michael: What you are saying makes sense, I will speak to the director about this. Maybe we don't need a perfect exposure of his face, perhaps the director will be happy with a darker, slightly underexposed look.

 

I can't believe how many possibilities exist in one damn office scene! lol

 

BDI :ph34r:

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

You could always hang something down from the windows. A very fine netting would kick some light out balancing both outside/indoors a bit more.

 

... and maybe rig a piece of R4 or softer to the dolly for a little bounced fill.

Thats a dam good idea actually.

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I would suggest not a straight track-in but one the goes past the desk if you want to see the guy in the face as he turns 90 degrees on his chair.

 

Or first go past him, so he´s profile and than he can turn to the camera, depending on the lines he has to say.

 

I agree with others: keep it simple, if it is a graphical shot, don´t mess too much with extra lights. keep it contrasty and let the outside light be the key.

 

Rob van Gelder

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What about a Kino mounted on the dolly under/over the camera, so as the dolly pushes in the kino illuminates the subject's back.  Do we ever see his/her face? 

The kino might not have enough output but it may give you enough to get some detail in. 

Hi,

 

I understand his back is to the window and the camera is pushing in on his front, but nonetheless, this seems to be the most logical approach. It wouldn't make much sense to start with the subject in silouette and end with him properly exposed, unless you turn on a practical. You suggested a bounce board earlier, but I agree a kino or some daylight balanced chimera (like a joker) mounted to the dolly would be nice. This way you might catch some reflection in his eyes. Some argue this looks artificial, but sometimes it helps bring the subject to life when their face is mostly in shadow.

 

Good luck

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One more thing,

 

If you go with the this approach, make sure you have detailed camera reports if there'll be an unsupervised transfer. Otherwise, the colorist might assume you made a mistake and bring his face up to proper exposure, letting the background go almost white and give so much grain it'll look like it's snowing in the office.

If this happens, you're gonna have some splain'n to do to the director.

 

Looking at the dates of these posts, you may have already shot this. If so, I hope it went well. If not, good luck.

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