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Ultra 16mm


peter moore

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Hehehe that's great Tim!

 

And for everyone go to Tim's website and you will see amazing footage done on regular 16 ( 16x9)

Best

 

 

I look at Tim's site all the time. I would like to see more outdoor footage. Indoor stuff looks great though.

Edited by AdamBray
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Hello All,

 

If you are talking about a brand new 16mm camera, then I think you are right. It wouldn't make any sense to change the film gate for Ultra 16. If, however, you are talking about a 16mm camera off of eBay that you paid 100.00 dollars for, then I think it's an excellent way to give your old camera a make over. Here is a comparsion chart: http://marylandfilms.com/16mm-super16-ultra16-compared.html

If those figures are correct, then it's very cool and not a lot of money to change over your old camera.

 

 

Mike

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Hello All,

 

If you are talking about a brand new 16mm camera, then I think you are right. It wouldn't make any sense to change the film gate for Ultra 16. If, however, you are talking about a 16mm camera off of eBay that you paid 100.00 dollars for, then I think it's an excellent way to give your old camera a make over. Here is a comparsion chart: http://marylandfilms.com/16mm-super16-ultra16-compared.html

If those figures are correct, then it's very cool and not a lot of money to change over your old camera.

Mike

 

 

try this link http://marylandfilms.com/16mm-super16-ultra16-compared.html

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i could be wrong but the image area for ultra16 is bigger than super16, so finding the right lenses will be an issue i think

 

This is what Bernie said in a earlier reply

 

 

It will cover the full range of "normal" 16mm lenses. You're not recentering the lens axis by the 0ne mm required in S16. The gg will need to be remarked a little wider on both sides.

 

Regards

 

 

Don

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No, it's not bigger -- go to that link posted above.

http://marylandfilms.com/16mm-super16-ultra16-compared.html

I think the biggest problem with this format is the issue with scratching the film inside the perf area. It is easy to modify the gate of a camera or telecine, etc however to modify the complete film path may be difficult or in some cases impossible depending on the mechanics of the camera.

 

I feel that this is a low end modification and I personally think that there is no reason to consider it over Super16 if any real money will be spent as there is too much risk of damaging the negative.

 

It is easy to machine a gate on a camera or TK and cheap too on an older TK for example a spirit is another matter. Modding a older 16mm gate is probably the extent of support I will give this format as other mods get very expensive and do not equally compete with all of the excellent Super16 equipment out there.

 

-Rob-

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That link is pushing a very slanted opinion against the reality of 16mm production, both amateur and professional.

 

Just look at the 'disadvantages' listed for Super 16.

 

S16 cameras are expensive

 

Eclairs, CP16s and older Aatons can hardly be considered expensive cameras - most you can buy with a super 16 conversion for less than some pro-sumer HDV cameras. Many of these are proper production cameras too with quick change magazines, on board batteries and are built for long haul production.

 

S16 lenses are expensive

 

Well yes thats true, but so is shooting film baby! Why would you spend thousands shooting film and then try and save a few bob by using older lenses, yes they may be okay but lenses are the most important part of your camera, so its worth spending a little money to rent some quality. Plus why buy, many media charaties in the US and Europe have super 16 cameras and lenses which are barely used. Rent from them.

 

Converting R16 cameras and lenses is expensive

 

Yes but if you do convert, you are now using a professional format, which is still the backbone of quality drama production in Europe. Its also a standard, so when a camera is converted it is converted - there are no guarantees that a camera adapted to Ultra 16 will not scratch the film within the picture area.

 

Many R16 cameras can not be converted to S16

 

So! Who cares? What you planning to shoot a feature on a Canon Scoopic? Arri S are MOS cameras, Arri BLs are notoriously noisy. And if you like your Regular 16mm cameras then why not just shoot academy - the format for 50 years of filmmaking, go watch Christopher Nolan's 'Following' shot in the 90s on an Arri BL in academy - what's more it was great for his career, why because he could post producers VHS tapes and it looked great on their TVs.

 

Can not have sound, since there is no room for the sound track

 

Not an issue, direct sound on 16mm is dead. So is showing films on 16mm prints almost.

 

Blowups to 35mm require some cropping

 

So what? the negative picture area is still larger than on Ultra 16, and it also gives you a larger area for 16 x 9 television broadcasting. Also remember that blowups to 35mm may sound cool, but 16mm is really the format of choice for television - thats where its best suited, if you want a cinema release 35mm is what you should consider first, unless super 16 or HD are required financially or artistically.

 

Can only use Single-perf film

 

Is there any other type of film?

 

Sending it to the wrong lab may scratch film

 

Yes this is true, but if the lab scratch your film, you're using the wrong lab, 100% of professional labs in the US and Europe are set up for super 16mm. Why? Because as 16mm goes, super 16 is now the industry standard. If they can't process super 16 then they are perhaps better avoided.

 

 

Now please don't get me wrong, if people manage to utilize this obscure and largely unsupported format to produce great work or art - thats great, and some older Regular 16 camera are very attractive for limited uses, however an article that tries to compare Ultra 16 with Super 16 must be asinine - Super 16 is a modern, robust and relatively cost effective format - which is the professional standard for film and television drama outside of 35mm production, across the globe. You can not compare the two.

Edited by Andy_Alderslade
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There's no advantage to having a larger image area?

Uhhh, right.

 

And as far as ruining the camera, I guess it has to be stated again: YOU STILL HAVE THE REGULAR 16 IMAGE AREA. It's still taking the reg16 frame, if you don't decide (or can't find) to tranfer to Ultra16, then there's no loss; you just tell the lab it's regular 16.

 

MP

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  • 3 years later...

There's no advantage to having a larger image area?

Uhhh, right.

 

And as far as ruining the camera, I guess it has to be stated again: YOU STILL HAVE THE REGULAR 16 IMAGE AREA. It's still taking the reg16 frame, if you don't decide (or can't find) to tranfer to Ultra16, then there's no loss; you just tell the lab it's regular 16.

 

MP

 

Yes, you still have R16. I have a K3 and an Eclair NPR both converted by Bernie O.(The Camera God) from Super16inc. I just got my NPR back and have not shot any film yet, but I recently shot 200' of color neg. in the K3. Sent the film to Cinelab and had them print a R16 print. Put it in my projector two nights ago and it looked great! Cinelab did a great job and probably didn't know it was an Ultra16 negative. It would be nice to get Ultra16 prints but I may be the only person on the planet wanting to cut Ultra16. But if I shoot reversal I'll have the Ultra16 frame on the positive. I wonder if Cinelab has an Ultra16 gate for their printer?

 

A few days ago I spoke to someone at Cinelab about Ultra16 telecine/scanning. They said telecine in a few weeks and 2k scanning by the end of the summer.

Edited by Herbie Pabst
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A few days ago I spoke to someone at Cinelab about Ultra16 telecine/scanning. They said telecine in a few weeks and 2k scanning by the end of the summer.

 

Herbie,

 

If you went sniffing around the archives you've probably already found the other threads with Paul Korver of Cinelicious.tv discussing his ultra 16 telecine capabilities. He's been doing it probably for a year now. He also has some Ultra 16 cameras for rent.

 

I visited his new digs a couple of weeks ago. He has a very nice, spacious facility a few blocks from his old location.

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Herbie,

 

If you went sniffing around the archives you've probably already found the other threads with Paul Korver of Cinelicious.tv discussing his ultra 16 telecine capabilities. He's been doing it probably for a year now. He also has some Ultra 16 cameras for rent.

 

I visited his new digs a couple of weeks ago. He has a very nice, spacious facility a few blocks from his old location.

 

I found Cinelicious.tv a while back. The things they are doing look great. But I live in New Jersey and was hoping that someone closer would get going with U16. I realize I can ship it to them for telecine but they don't process they send it out. So Cinelab looked good because they're one day shipping away and they will be doing everything in house but they're not doing it yet. There are others on the East Coast that said they would be transferring U16 but they have not done it either, at least not as of today.

 

To be honest, I have almost no money to shoot with film I skip lunches to buy film so every cost has an effect. If I can cut out some of the shipping costs and maybe smaller minimum charges I'd be able to get more of my shorts on film. I've been working with HD for the last 4 years and have not been able to get the look that I've been looking for. I shoot one roll of film and there is the look I want. So I have learned that film is were I want to be so hopefully I'll find a way to shoot U16.

 

Super16inc. is a great place. Bernie O. has my cameras running beyond like new!

Edited by Herbie Pabst
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  • 4 weeks later...

Martin,

 

Sometimes your English gets in the way. :-) Big smile my friend.

 

ARRI's Ultra 16 set of prime lenses has absolutely nothing to to with the Ultra 16 the folks are talking about on this thread. (I did give some of the folks I know at ARRI a hard time when they first introduced the lenses though, because of the name they chose. I could not believe how many of them had not heard of Ultra 16 (the one this thread is referring to)).

 

The Ultra 16 this thread is referring to is taking a regular 16mm camera and filing out both sides of the gate to get a wider ratio picture. Something I think is basically insane, but hey, if you own the camera you can do anything you want to it. Folks keep trying to say that it is as good as Super 16, or that it can make older cameras better able to shoot 16x9. I say hogwash. Use Kodak 7217, (Vision2 200T), frame for 16x9 on the ground glass, and shoot your movie. It ain't rocket science. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

That's my 2 cents worth. Let the flaming begin.

 

-Tim

 

Hi everybody.

 

And TIM...

 

Please explain "Use Kodak 7217, (Vision2 200T), frame for 16x9 on the ground glass, and shoot your movie".

In a 16mm camera, does that gives the 16:9 aspect ratio?

 

Asking because I'm thinking to convert a Bolex camera I;m buying to Ultra 16... The only problem is the telecine here in UK... Not sure if actually exists somewhere. :P

 

I do agree soem things are crazy... But I do think its worths the effort and investing... The aspect ratio 1.85:1 is unbeatable.

Convencional 16mm and even Super 16mm really does not convince me anymore.... Seems i;m watching TV, not a film (apart from the lovely grain texture any 16mm film gives, of course)

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Cinelab is Processing Ultra in B&W Neg and Reversal as well as Color Negative right now. We will be transferring Ultra-16 on our new Y-Front/DaVinci suite to 1080P ProresHQ or DNxHD as of Friday.

 

We will be offering oversampled 2K Ultra scans in September.

 

-Rob-

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Cinelab is Processing Ultra in B&W Neg and Reversal as well as Color Negative right now. We will be transferring Ultra-16 on our new Y-Front/DaVinci suite to 1080P ProresHQ or DNxHD as of Friday.

 

We will be offering oversampled 2K Ultra scans in September.

 

-Rob-

 

Great news about the y-front, what did you have to go through to get that to 1080p? There are two houses here in Dallas with them that relegate them to sd dailies and would probably love to be able to offer a cheaper HD alternative to their maxed out Spirits. And if you don't mind me asking, what are the Y-Front HD rates to ProRes?

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  • 1 year later...

Here's a stupid/odd question, I was just curious if anyone has or can provide a picture of their ultra 16 frames on the actual film stock. I once thought I saw a picture someone took where not only was the area between the sprocket holes exposed but also the super16 area. I'm unable to find that picture again, but I was just curious if the ultra16 modification of the gate included the super16 area as well? I was thinking "why not," I figure it would probably be easier opening the whole gate instead of just focusing on a small portion but what do I know.

 

Again, might seem like a silly question but I was just curious, besides if the super16 area is open too then it just makes it easier for a conversion to it later when I'd have the money. That and there's always the small glimmer of hope that with the right lenses, mabye I can correctly expose the entire super16 area with limited vignetting and end up getting a 2 for one deal. ::shrugs::

 

-Phil

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Here's a stupid/odd question, I was just curious if anyone has or can provide a picture of their ultra 16 frames on the actual film stock. I once thought I saw a picture someone took where not only was the area between the sprocket holes exposed but also the super16 area. I'm unable to find that picture again, but I was just curious if the ultra16 modification of the gate included the super16 area as well? I was thinking "why not," I figure it would probably be easier opening the whole gate instead of just focusing on a small portion but what do I know.

 

Again, might seem like a silly question but I was just curious, besides if the super16 area is open too then it just makes it easier for a conversion to it later when I'd have the money. That and there's always the small glimmer of hope that with the right lenses, mabye I can correctly expose the entire super16 area with limited vignetting and end up getting a 2 for one deal. ::shrugs::

 

-Phil

I don't think this is possible. Super 16 is single perf film, ultra usually uses double perf, exposing a wider area between the perforations. It also exposes film on the left side of the frame as well as the right. Super 16 expands the right hand side only. Or am I wrong about this? Bonolabs.com has a good graphic that shows the size of each frame in relation to each other.

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I don't think this is possible. Super 16 is single perf film, ultra usually uses double perf, exposing a wider area between the perforations. It also exposes film on the left side of the frame as well as the right. Super 16 expands the right hand side only. Or am I wrong about this? Bonolabs.com has a good graphic that shows the size of each frame in relation to each other.

 

Right, but you don't have to use a double perf camera or film for Ultra16. In theory yes, they only need to expand between the perfs.

 

But if your camera could handle single perf film and you only added an area between the perfs then you would expose kind of a "+" sign. The verticle line would be from the regular 16 and the horizontal would be from the ultra16. That's just silly, open up the whole gate if you have a single perf camera!

 

That's why i'm wondering/ asking if the people who've had an ultra16 conversion on a single perf camera had had their entire gate to the right opened PLUS the left area between the sprockets.

 

I really wish i could find that picture...

 

-Phil

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  • 4 weeks later...

Philip,

 

What you're talking about is not about expanding Ultra16mm into the Super16mm range, it's about expanding Super16mm between the perfs. The problem with this is why Super16 costs so much more than Ultra16 to convert: you must re-center the lens. You can expand Ultra 16 into the Super16 area all you want, but without re-centering the lens you're not going to expose that extra area.

 

I'm actually shooting Ultra16 on an Eclair ACL (converted by Bernie -- my first shoot since last year's conversion) on single perf film.

 

Best,

 

Josh

 

Right, but you don't have to use a double perf camera or film for Ultra16. In theory yes, they only need to expand between the perfs.

 

But if your camera could handle single perf film and you only added an area between the perfs then you would expose kind of a "+" sign. The verticle line would be from the regular 16 and the horizontal would be from the ultra16. That's just silly, open up the whole gate if you have a single perf camera!

 

That's why i'm wondering/ asking if the people who've had an ultra16 conversion on a single perf camera had had their entire gate to the right opened PLUS the left area between the sprockets.

 

I really wish i could find that picture...

 

-Phil

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You can expand Ultra 16 into the Super16 area all you want, but without re-centering the lens you're not going to expose that extra area.

Depends on the lens... if you widen the gate without re-centering and the lens covers the area it will work but zooming would be strange and you may encounter edge distortion more on one side.

 

People widen the gates on K3's all the time but rarely re-centered the lens. If you use m42 mount Pentax 35mm camera still lenses it will easily cover that area.

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Here's a stupid/odd question, I was just curious if anyone has or can provide a picture of their ultra 16 frames on the actual film stock. I once thought I saw a picture someone took where not only was the area between the sprocket holes exposed but also the super16 area. I'm unable to find that picture again, but I was just curious if the ultra16 modification of the gate included the super16 area as well? I was thinking "why not," I figure it would probably be easier opening the whole gate instead of just focusing on a small portion but what do I know.

 

Again, might seem like a silly question but I was just curious, besides if the super16 area is open too then it just makes it easier for a conversion to it later when I'd have the money. That and there's always the small glimmer of hope that with the right lenses, mabye I can correctly expose the entire super16 area with limited vignetting and end up getting a 2 for one deal. ::shrugs::

 

-Phil

 

 

Phil, I think you might be talking about this picture:

 

 

 

I don't remember where it came from but I had it on my computer.

 

The problem with going this wide is how to support the film adequately without causing scratches in the negative area.

 

Cheers,

Jean-Louis

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  • 2 weeks later...

Right, but you don't have to use a double perf camera or film for Ultra16. In theory yes, they only need to expand between the perfs.

 

But if your camera could handle single perf film and you only added an area between the perfs then you would expose kind of a "+" sign. The verticle line would be from the regular 16 and the horizontal would be from the ultra16. That's just silly, open up the whole gate if you have a single perf camera!

 

That's why i'm wondering/ asking if the people who've had an ultra16 conversion on a single perf camera had had their entire gate to the right opened PLUS the left area between the sprockets.

 

I really wish i could find that picture...

 

-Phil

 

 

 

This reminds me somewhat of Ian Smith's VARISCOPE format :)

 

 

See picture on my blog "Who Invented Super-16" at www.filmisfine.co

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  • 6 months later...

It's awesome to find out who is negative and bitter and who is innovative and positive. Super 16 was a diy thing that caught on, sort of like Ultra has. There was certainly negative people shaking there heads and name calling when they filed their gates. Boy were they wrong. I'm for filing the gate yourself and making your good r16 into a great r16 in 10min for zero dollars. Super16 is awesome but if your going to spend into the thousands then have a look into 35 2perf.

PS.

Professionals can be very negative sometimes. Don't listen to negative people no matter what, they are contagious.

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