new Kodak Vision3 500T demo

[Matthew Buick]

That's a shame, David. Though I'm pretty sure smeting will come with time.

 

Smeting? Smeting?! How on earth did I make a typo like that!? :huh:

 

To keep on topic, I think I prefer the colour tones of Fuji's 500 ASA stocks compared to Kodak's. I still wouldn't shoot it though, as I am a Super 8 user.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Matthew Buick

[Francesco Bonomo]

I'm directing a short next week, and there's a good chance we're going to use 5219 for it (I'll know more about it tomorrow). I'm looking forward to seeing the differences compared to the "old" vision2 500t, I'll try and post some pictures (maybe even some footage) right after we're done, though I know a computer screen is probably not the best way to notice all the subtle differences or improvements in the new stock.

[K Borowski]

I'm directing a short next week, and there's a good chance we're going to use 5219 for it (I'll know more about it tomorrow). I'm looking forward to seeing the differences compared to the "old" vision2 500t, I'll try and post some pictures (maybe even some footage) right after we're done, though I know a computer screen is probably not the best way to notice all the subtle differences or improvements in the new stock.

 

That'd be great if you could post some real-world shooting samples. Is this being finished in HD for TV or telecine? If it is you can do some pretty good blowups of individual frames which should do a good job of showing improvements.

 

Of course, without comparison footage, the improvements may be more difficult to see. Lol, just ask the director to shoot some takes with 5218 and some with 5219 and see what he says ;)

[Francesco Bonomo]

That'd be great if you could post some real-world shooting samples. Is this being finished in HD for TV or telecine?

 

we're finishing in telecine, not sure about the details yet.

 

If it is you can do some pretty good blowups of individual frames which should do a good job of showing improvements.

 

I'll talk to the DP tomorrow and to the lab later next week and see what I can do. A lot of people are doing us HUGE favours to let this happen, so I just don't want to ask tooo much too fast :D

[Matthew Buick]

That's incredible, Francesco! Congratulations. ;) You could seriously be the first ever.

[Francesco Bonomo]

That's incredible, Francesco! Congratulations. ;) You could seriously be the first ever.

 

well, thanks Matthew, but to be honest I haven't really done anything: if this thing happens, and it's a big "if", it will be only because of the efforts of our amazing DP and the people at Kodak. i'll keep you guys posted

[Matthew Buick]

Still, an "if" is much better than a "no". Who is your DP by the way?

[Francesco Bonomo]

update: We're shooting on Vision2, though I can't be disappointed at all: 2 weeks ago we wrote the short and we were thinking about shooting it on MiniDV, now it's 35mm, so I can't be happier. :D

 

Kodak is going to present the results for some Vision3 tests later this week here in Rome, if I'm not too busy I'll try and go there.

I apologize for the slightly off-topic post.

[Will Montgomery]

I think the older Fuji technology would be the F series... and F64 Daylight is the only one remaining in that line.

 

What I find amazing is that Fuji is so well known for their reversal still films yet don't offer anything for motion picture film. I guess I shouldn't be amazed; there can't be that big of a market but I bet it could outsell Ektrachrome 100D is it was released. Even their Velvia 100 stock would be fine.

 

The Velvia Super 8 that Spectra makes is just beautiful in that over-saturated-reversal-looking way. I wish Fuji would put some out in 16mm (if not Super 8 but I know their issues with the format...it probably still hurts.)

[Hal Smith]

Of course, without comparison footage, the improvements may be more difficult to see. Lol, just ask the director to shoot some takes with 5218 and some with 5219 and see what he says ;)

That's what Kodak would like you to do if you're lucky enough to be gifted with some 5219 for test - shoot both 5218 and 5219 (0219) to be able to directly compare results.

[Leo Anthony Vale]

What I find amazing is that Fuji is so well known for their reversal still films yet don't offer anything for motion picture film. I guess I shouldn't be amazed; there can't be that big of a market but I bet it could outsell Ektrachrome 100D is it was released. Even their Velvia 100 stock would be fine.

 

They used to & TV news used to use color reversal film instead of tape.

 

They came out with a 400T ME-4 before kodak did. Well kodak never had it in an ME-4, VNF.

 

Fuji did seem to come out with high speed stocks before Kodak did.

 

I shot a test roll of the 400 pushed two stops under mercury vapors at a truck rest stop.

 

Grainy, but nice blues.

[Guest Kyle Waszkelewicz]

So to anyone who knows, is there any reason to use '18 if this is available? Is this stock basically just a slightly-finer-grained more-latitude-having better-performing '18? I thought this was gonna be a less contrasty stock because of the wider range, but from what has been said that doesn't seem to be true.

 

I will be shooting my thesis film in 6 weeks and was planning on using 7218, but am getting the impression that I'll get the same results, just better, with 7219. Could anyone tell me if, weird exposures and processing notwithstanding, there would be ANY reason not to switch to V3? Thanks.

[David Mullen ASC]

I think the only reasons to use '18 instead of '19 are if you want a little more grain... and you don't want to pay 3% more.

[Chayse Irvin ASC, CSC]

Just got back from the demo in vancouver and I think the stock looked fantastic. I think if the 19 does as well as I think it will, the 18 will get discontinued not to far in the future from now. The 19 is finer grain but it still has that film quality we all love. Its the stock i've been waiting for. Can't wait to shoot it.

[Anthony Schilling]

I've used plenty of V2 S8 7218 and have always been amazed by the lack of grain appearance you can get under tungston. The V3 7219 improvements will be a lot more apparent in S8 than in 35mm. If it performs like I hope, and Kodak is firm on only offering 2 negs, then maybe we should swap the 200T for the 50D 7201. I would rather have a high speed T stock that looks amazing, and a low speed D stock that also looks amazing... as opposed to the 200T being too grainy in daylight, and to slow for tungston.

[Will Montgomery]

I'd be curious to see a break down of Kodak's negative sales by ASA. Maybe a pie chart.

 

I understand the 500T is the best seller but I wonder how much each of the others they sell. I seem to buy 500T, 50D and 250D (16mm) in that order.

 

While David has a good point about 50D not being much improved with the Vision3 technology, I bet that they eventually release some of these other speeds in V3 simply from a marketing standpoint even if not much is improved. It might seem as though they were somehow "less" than the V3 stock even if they really weren't.

[Anthony Schilling]

You always hear that 500T (and expression) is the industry work horse. From what I have noticed, it seems like 200T is second most used. 50D, 250D, and 100T are added into the mix here and there. Maybe some of these pro guys can confirm, but it doesn't seem like 50D comes close to 500T & 200T in sales. David was basically saying that the V3 technology was extracted from the 7201, so we may not even see a V3 50D... You didn't have a V1 50D, it went from EXR to V2 and the V2 has been out barely a year. I've used the 7201 in S8 loads, the grain and performance in S8 daylight is unmatched. From what I've seen from the 7218 in S8, the 7219 is what your going to want in tungston. 7201 and 7219 would be a deadly combination for the format. The 200T is a great stock, and i bet V3 200T is soon to be next. But when it comes to the small guage, it's too much grainier and faster than 50D in daylight... the extra 1&1/3rd stops and tad extra grain (along with color and sharpness) of the 500T is a more worthy choice.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Anthony Schilling

[Michael Lehnert]

Vision3 50 D, to speculate a bit, is certainly several years away. As I havn't seen 7219 personally, and based on the postings I had with David earlier here, I am not overly enthusiastic about the progress for bigger formats, but as I said, it will shine most visibly in Super 8. And as we know, 7219 will come to the Kodapak cartridge probably next year. Am sure as replacemement for 7218.

 

Given the choice between either 7201 or 7217... hmm, tough one... as it stands, 7217 is the best film stock available in Super 8 for multi-purpose applications while maintaining tight grain, enormous latitude and consistent color reproduction. The visual impression of "sharpness" is higher than with 7218, but that is obvious for a less sensitive film stock.

Well, given the choice, I would favour 7201 to come to Super 8, as it would fit in ideally to the concept around which the format was built. It would work in all notch-code-based EI systems of all cameras available, which 500 T isn't (but 200 T is... just). But having said that, I would not like to see 7217 or its successor leave the Super 8 line-up for 7219 yet.

 

If I personally had to choose the selection of a two-film-stocks-only line-up for Super 8, I would choose 7201 and 7217 now, without 7219 on the market. If 7219 comes close to 7217 ? which David put into relativity ? then I would welcome it as a replacement for 7217 in the Super 8 line-up. Otherwise not.

 

Personally, I think Rochester should move beyond the twin line-up for colour negative stocks and release 7201 to the format, have a 7217 successor at hand, and offer 7219 as replacement for 7218.

As regards colour reversal stock, 7285 (E-100) should replace the limiteld 7280 (E-64) pronto.

As regards B&W reversal/negative stock, 7265 (Plus-X) and 7266 (Tri-X) are already a pure blessing for the format. Truly great and timeless film stocks that I hope will be improved for next generation filmmakers, too!

[Will Montgomery]

Kodak says on their web site that Vision2 100T is the sharpest motion picture stock available. Wonder if that is still true and if it is why noone is using it in Super 8.

[Francesco Bonomo]

we (i.e. our DP) managed to get 300ft of 19 for the short film: we shot two camera setups with it and with 18, so we'll be able to see the difference. We should get the footage back from the lab today, hopefully I'll be able to post a couple of screenshots from telecine later this week.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I'm really looking forward to seeing the '19 stuff. Good luck @ Telecine.

[Matthew Buick]

Wow! Good luck. I can't wait to see it.

[K Borowski]

Kodak says on their web site that Vision2 100T is the sharpest motion picture stock available. Wonder if that is still true and if it is why noone is using it in Super 8.

 

IIRC, that was before '01 came out (it was proclaimed this way when they still had EXR 50D '245 in the lineup). Now that '201 is out, I'm sure that it is also the sharpest. The slowest stocks of the same emulsion technology almost always fare the best as far as sharpness, fine-grainedness, and color saturation are concerned

 

~KB

[David Mullen ASC]

IIRC, that was before '01 came out (it was proclaimed this way when they still had EXR 50D '245 in the lineup). Now that '201 is out, I'm sure that it is also the sharpest. The slowest stocks of the same emulsion technology almost always fare the best as far as sharpness, fine-grainedness, and color saturation are concerned

 

~KB

 

Actually Kodak still says '12 is the sharpest, not '01. Sometimes when the grain is too small, you don't get the same edginess, the image sort of smooths over too much. In fact, one person at Kodak said he doesn't like '12 because its edge sharpness makes the grain become more pronounced, making it look more like 200T.

 

Sharpness is controlled to some degree by acutance, so some stocks may create more of an edge enhancement effect around the grain, sort of a drop-shadow effect that increases the sharpness of the image. This is one reason why Fuji stocks generally look softer than Kodak's, they don't do this as much.

[Matthew Buick]

Sharpness is controlled to some degree by acutance, so some stocks may create more of an edge enhancement effect around the grain, sort of a drop-shadow effect that increases the sharpness of the image. This is one reason why Fuji stocks generally look softer than Kodak's, they don't do this as much.

 

I now know that if I were shooting on 35mm I would opt for Fuji, but would you say that in Super 8 Fuji would be too soft?