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Agfa Movexoom 10


Don Brown

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Has anybody been inside Movexoom 10 can't workout how to remove control knobs don't want to use brute force

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

Don

Hi Everyone

Forgot what I asked have found Service Manual its on its way.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Don

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Hi Everyone

Forgot what I asked have found Service Manual its on its way.

 

 

Regards

 

 

Don

 

Have you considered a service professional? Those cameras are kind of cool, they have 10 times zoom starting at a very cool 6mm wide angle. There are very few cameras that go all the way down to 6mm on the wide side. I have yet to shoot with mine but I am very curious how the 6mm looks.

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Have you considered a service professional? Those cameras are kind of cool, they have 10 times zoom starting at a very cool 6mm wide angle. There are very few cameras that go all the way down to 6mm on the wide side. I have yet to shoot with mine but I am very curious how the 6mm looks.

 

 

Hi Alessandro

Thanks for that, I have another 3 two non-sound and one sound not much use as stock obsolete

I have got inside and have found a resistor over heating, it was working when I got it, the chance of finding a engineer here in UK that can work on a 30 year old 8mm camera is very slim

I have the Service manual on order which should have a circuit diagram which I will be able to see whats pulling current though that resistor. I am an electronic engineer who has worked on 35/16mm

cameras when I was Head of sound maintenace for Samuelson Film Service which at its time was the largest film equipment rental in the World.

I want to do some mods on camera so I don't mind its not working, nice board inside seems to use stepper for the auto iris and tacho on motor may be able to xtal lock.

 

 

Regards

 

Don

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Coincidentally, I was just reading an old Movie Maker article today that mentioned the Agfa Movexoom at Photokina, and it did note, yes, that it had a stepper motor for the iris that used something like 32 "pulses" per f/stop. They were very proud of this in 1975 which means AFAIK that this was one of the earliest sort of 'digital' "pulse' consumer pieces anywhere. I had always thought it was some $$$ Bang and Olufsen component but no, Super 8 apparently beat them to the punch. The article also said it used something like "MOS technology" which made me smile, but that was a very big deal for the time.

Edited by Jim Carlile
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It was a big deal, as AGFA was one of the first companies to push electronification in Super 8 gear (in a time when the brand-new Arriflex 16 SR was still a mechanical device and not a field computer like the Advanced today) forward, half-a decade before it really started off with the later Nizo sound cameras and the Bauer S 715 XL microcomputer which really was all about that "silly-con" chip inside (nice features, but practical usability of them... :unsure: )

 

MOS is of course neither the Ministry of Sound, nor a Microsoft Office Specialist, let alone anyhow related to the urban myth of "Mit ohne Sound" in our industry.

 

It stands for metal?oxide?semiconductor, which means that its basically just a common field-effect transistor for digital or indeed analog circuits. But it sounded cool then, 2 years before Apple launched its Apple I, n.b.! It also was definitely more substantial in used technology than Beaulieu's "Hall Sensor System", which was just a rip-off advertising claim!

 

Nevertheless, the Agfa Movexoom series had other shortcomings that hindered it to become a major market force challenging Bauer or Nizo, and the "Geschmacksmuster"-lawsuit brought against Agfa by Braun Nizo eliminated any chance for large market-share success.

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Michael, was Minolta involved with these Afga cameras, as they were with the Microflex (they made those, didn't they?)

 

What was the lawsuit about?

 

The more I learn about these Agfas and the Zeiss Ikons, the more impressive they are.-- they were way ahead of their time-- they seemed to have come up with most of the advances and big ideas.

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Minolta was indeed involved with the construction of the cameras, in the way that they supplied the lenses! Why do you ask?

 

Despite claims and even published material claiming that the optics used by Agfa were Made in Germany, it was actually Minolta that built and supplied the Variostar-series in Japan, such as for the Agfa Movexoom 10 MOS Electronic with the Variostar 1:1,8 / 6-60mm.

 

 

You might remember that we were not able to include this particularly interesting model in tests that eventually lead to the Super 8 Top Camera Guide list published here and extensively discussed in the current and next issues of Super 8 Today.

 

Well, we rectified this omission recently with a private initiative as my brother purchased a mint condition model and is currently experimenting with it. So far, my brother got back mixed results, but I shall keep you posted about how the camera fits in. I think I will hijack this thread for this ^_^ , as it is so beautifully named and hopefully attracts potential readers when they search the Agfa Movexoom term (people use the search function here, do they?! :unsure: :rolleyes: ).

 

 

As far as the legal case against Agfa brought up by Nizo (Braun) is concerned:

Braun, then owner of the Nizo marque, sued Agfa for 'Geschmacksmusterverletzung', the German word for what could best be translated as "violation of the form factor of its trademark products" (ahh, I love German, always a unpronoucnible and complicted one-word-term at hand... :P ).

 

Braun had established itself in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s as the world's premier industry design company, and its design work, principally crafted by Dieter Ram, was globally recognised as such. Even today, as Braun is essentially no longer existing (as is all of Germany's electric and electronic industry sector), its bygone electric shavers and Hi-Fi components and cameras are truly competing with the best contemporary design can offer today, and IMHO get rarely beaten. Dieter Ram's influence even resonates quite clearly (maybe too clearly for me, even as I am a convinced Apple user since 1983) in the work of Jonathan Ive at Apple (I actually commented about that at the beginning of this post there).

 

As I said, Braun sued Agfa because if thought Agfa had done a violation of the form factor of its trademark products with the Movexoom-series, especially against the Nizo big-bodied cameras (in general) and the Nizo sound cameras (in detailings such as the switchgear arrangement). Braun won the case and Agfa had, as far as I remember, to cease production of the Movexoom-series.

 

Whether you agree with the courts or not is open to you. I put forward for your consideration pictoral evidence, with the pictures themselves originating form Super 8 Arena, a one of many, but particularly well-reputed Super 8 Camera E-Commerce outlets, as their digital stills showcase the problem at hand most clearly (not happy with me stealing your pics, S8A.com? Well, Sosumi -_- !)

post-27184-1202098913.jpg

post-27184-1202098971.jpg

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You are welcome!

 

Can you see Braun's point?

 

Super 8 Arena's digital stills are very well set-up and lit. This really invites a great shopping experience, so I guess someone in the Super 8 market has learned his marketing lessons :) .

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Has anybody been inside Movexoom 10 can't workout how to remove control knobs don't want to use brute force

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

Don

Hi Everybody

Managed to get inside now I have manual, which helps as there are bits that hold board in place that you do not know without the info

Very nice build, top quality circuit board I think better than Nizo the two main IC's are still avaliable via internet stockist

The one I am working on is the sound version and have removed the brass flywheel on the capstan which has made the camera a bit lighter

The motor cicuit has a tacho feedback so looking at a quartz lock but still want to use the Timelapse and stop frame facility which works fine.

Michael I know what you mean when you say that Braun was upset but this happens all the time the Japanese & Russian's have be doing it for years, every Video camera now looks the same.

Anyway I have now 4 2 silent models and 2 sound both with 10-1 lenses and a baby Agfa 300

 

Regards

 

Don

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Agreed! I guess the difference was just that with the German Sue-me-sue-you culture, that issue was bound to end in the courts, whereas during the Cold War, lawsuits beyond the Iron Curtain were impossible, and as re. international lawsuits... well, if you aren't Apple who will sue to even if you life beyond Neptune, even companies like GM have problems enforcing their TMs today vis-à-vis China or Russia...

 

Hey, feel free to post some pics of your ongoing Agfa operation. It's always interesting to see the innards of some cameras. And good luck on results, Don!

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Agreed! I guess the difference was just that with the German Sue-me-sue-you culture, that issue was bound to end in the courts, whereas during the Cold War, lawsuits beyond the Iron Curtain were impossible, and as re. international lawsuits... well, if you aren't Apple who will sue to even if you life beyond Neptune, even companies like GM have problems enforcing their TMs today vis-à-vis China or Russia...

 

Hey, feel free to post some pics of your ongoing Agfa operation. It's always interesting to see the innards of some cameras. And good luck on results, Don!

 

Hi Michael

OK on that I never think of German way of business being involved in dirty tactics

I will post some bits as I go on, Are you still in Hampstead ?

 

 

Best wishes

 

Don

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Pretty much! London is like a curse... the worst and the best place to be at once :), between rat race and glory. Hey, looking forward to those pics. And frankly, I would love to hear some anecdotes from your years at Samuelson's. I have a mid-1980s issue of Samuelson's "Motion Picture Camera Data" book from Focal Press, and it is a trusty and reliable companion, of course featuring also many Super 8 cameras in it , next to Aäton 7s, Mitchells and Wollensacks :)

Although you are based further north in the non-colonial version of Boston, there is a UK London sub-forum here, which I am sure you have heard about... if not, click me...

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Hi Michael, I just happened to stumble across this patent for Nizo, issued in 1972 in the U.S., while I was looking for something else.

 

If you look at the reference, it's apparent that what Braun did is that they saw the Movexoom, and then turned around and patented their own design afterwards. Then they sued:

 

http://www.google.com/patents?id=fHI8AAAAE...mp;dq=nizo+film

 

It's interesting-- they only patented the design and it was granted.

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Pretty much! London is like a curse... the worst and the best place to be at once :), between rat race and glory. Hey, looking forward to those pics. And frankly, I would love to hear some anecdotes from your years at Samuelson's. I have a mid-1980s issue of Samuelson's "Motion Picture Camera Data" book from Focal Press, and it is a trusty and reliable companion, of course featuring also many Super 8 cameras in it , next to Aäton 7s, Mitchells and Wollensacks :)

Although you are based further north in the non-colonial version of Boston, there is a UK London sub-forum here, which I am sure you have heard about... if not, click me...

Hi Michael

Moved to Lincolnshire 20 years ago to get away from rat race but it seems to have followed me here Boston now has now doubled with oversea's workers

Spent 10 years at Sammies in Cricklewood running the Sound maintenance which got me sent to Switzerland to learn how to service Nagra's and then in 75 took over the Video Assist dept which was in it infancy days as only a few Directors used it

Went freelance when Hugh Hudson asked me to do Greystoke and have travelled the World doing sound and video assist

But have a passion for 8/16mm cameras from CP16 H16 K3's and a host of 8mm Bolex Canon Agfa

 

Best wishes

 

Don

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Hi Michael, I just happened to stumble across this patent for Nizo, issued in 1972 in the U.S., while I was looking for something else.

 

If you look at the reference, it's apparent that what Braun did is that they saw the Movexoom, and then turned around and patented their own design afterwards. Then they sued:

 

http://www.google.com/patents?id=fHI8AAAAE...mp;dq=nizo+film

 

It's interesting-- they only patented the design and it was granted.

 

Google Patent Search?!?! Holy Moly, I just grasped Google Analytics, and then, Mountain View challenges my brain with something new and cool... while not being evil, of course.

 

Very very interesting. That Braun/Nizo would patent their design primarily is something I can see why, as that was their "Unique Selling Proposition", and with Dieter Ram's work universally recognised, I can't see why that wouldn't have gone through. See also original iMac or iBook or the Rolls-Royce grill, as alternative examples.

 

Now, you will need to help me out here re the chronology, as I can't follow that (might be also because it's late/early and keeping abreast with Super Tuesday in the UK for work is exhausting :lol: ).

 

Are you saying that Agfa came up with the Movexoom 6/10 shape first, and then Braun-Nizo came up with their small-bodied/big-bodied cameras shape later, but were first to patent it and then sued Agfa..?

Or are you saying that Nizo had their small-bodied/big-bodied cameras shape out there, but without patent protection for the design, THEN saw Agfa "copying" them, reg'd a design patent, and after it being granted, sued Agfa for their due infringement.

 

As far as I can remember, the Agfa Movexoom X000 series (the four digit cameras) ? those boxy Plan-9-from-Outer-Space-like laser pistol designs ? were around until the early 1970s, like 1973 to 74 or so. The new Agfa Movexoom 6 or 10 MOS Electronic models that lookalike to the Nizo small-bodied/big-bodied cameras came ? I think ? to market in the mid-1970s, by the time Nizo had THEIR shape on the market for years. After all, the early Nizo S 8 models came out in the mid-to-late 1960s already, nearly a decade before Agfa launched their controversially looking Movexoom cameras...

 

NizoS8T.JPG

 

Also: my brother gave me a nod doing his own research about the newly acquired Movexoom 10, and said that according to Jürgen Lossau's Super 8 camera book, Agfa was only condemned to make minor design alterations to the late Movexoom shape to comply with the courts and satisfy Braun/Nizo.

 

Another point that might have lead to Agfa's camera-making downfall is also that those models were extremely high priced and competing with top gear such as the Bauer A 512 and Nizo professional, yet did not offer true production camera value as found on those cameras... just a thought...

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Hi Michael

Moved to Lincolnshire 20 years ago to get away from rat race but it seems to have followed me here Boston now has now doubled with oversea's workers

Spent 10 years at Sammies in Cricklewood running the Sound maintenance which got me sent to Switzerland to learn how to service Nagra's and then in 75 took over the Video Assist dept which was in it infancy days as only a few Directors used it

Went freelance when Hugh Hudson asked me to do Greystoke and have travelled the World doing sound and video assist

But have a passion for 8/16mm cameras from CP16 H16 K3's and a host of 8mm Bolex Canon Agfa

 

Best wishes

 

Don

 

Wow. Just wow (sorry for the juvenile reaction...)

 

I would expect to come up with at least three dozen questions just reading your post, but I am a bit stunned right now. I am sure my senses will come back eventually with alot of annoying anecdote request from you...

 

Wow, you worked with Hugh Hudson on "Greystoke". I must say I was a young kid when it came out, and I couldn't get into the film then because of its mature approach to the Tarzan novel by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Bear in mind that at that time, for me, Tarzan was associated with the Johnny Weissmuller and Lex Barker versions broadcast on German TV in the afternoon. I had truly seen "Greystoke" for the first time just a few years ago after moving to the UK in the original version (no German dub, which matters alot) and actually was taken by it. The England sequences are beautifully filmed. And I was pleasantly astonished by Lambert's acting, not having been convinced by him in his other roles. But then again, saying that he impersonated a half-ape very well isn't maybe that much of a compliment... well, at least we have a 25-year-old Andie MacDowell to see debuting on the big screen...

 

In another thread discussing Cooke vs Zeiss aesthetics, I was talking about...

...the oddly warm light here in the UK, filled with that degree of moisture that defines the atmospheric humidity here even in hot summers and which gives the light that specific glow in the air, green-yellowish in nature, as the rays and particles get constantly broken.

Films by Stanley Kubrick aside, notably "Barry Lyndon" and "Clockwork Orange" of course, this is beautifully showcased in "Greystoke"!

...although it was shot with Zeiss rather than Cooke (hence somewhat undermining my above point on Cooke transcending what is filmed more into the artistic realm :rolleyes: )

 

So please forgive me my inquiring curiosity, what what did Video Operation encompass in 1983/84, practically on set at "Greystoke", at a time I guess where Video Assist still wasn't widespread? And how did it fit in with the film being the first (re-)adopter of Super Techniscope, i.e. Super 35? And how was it to work with the great John Alcott, someone I named publicly as someone I would have loved to apprentice with in this post here because of his rare cinematographic rhetoric.

 

Cheers, -Michael

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Wow. Just wow (sorry for the juvenile reaction...)

 

 

 

Wow, you worked with Hugh Hudson on "Greystoke". I must say I was a young kid when it came out, and I couldn't get into the film then because of its mature approach to the Tarzan novel by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Bear in mind that at that time, for me, Tarzan was associated with the Johnny Weissmuller and Lex Barker versions broadcast on German TV in the afternoon. I had truly seen "Greystoke" for the first time just a few years ago after moving to the UK in the original version (no German dub, which matters alot) and actually was taken by it. The England sequences are beautifully filmed. And I was pleasantly astonished by Lambert's acting, not having been convinced by him in his other roles. But then again, saying that he impersonated a half-ape very well isn't maybe that much of a compliment... well, at least we have a 25-year-old Andie MacDowell to see debuting on the big screen...

 

 

Films by Stanley Kubrick aside, notably "Barry Lyndon" and "Clockwork Orange" of course, this is beautifully showcased in "Greystoke"!

...although it was shot with Zeiss rather than Cooke (hence somewhat undermining my above point on Cooke transcending what is filmed more into the artistic realm :rolleyes: )

 

So please forgive me my inquiring curiosity, what what did Video Operation encompass in 1983/84, practically on set at "Greystoke", at a time I guess where Video Assist still wasn't widespread? And how did it fit in with the film being the first (re-)adopter of Super Techniscope, i.e. Super 35? And how was it to work with the great John Alcott, someone I named publicly as someone I would have loved to apprentice with in this post here because of his rare cinematographic rhetoric.

 

Cheers, -Michael

Hi Michael

Sorry for delay just got back from London in early hours a friend of mine was shooting video of stage show in West End and asked me to do the Sound 2 long days in rip off London £8 a day Con charge and £42 a day in Brewer St car park

plus the fuel.

 

Greystoke

Hugh was one of the early Directors that started using Video assist coming from commercials, He had all his own camera gear being two 35 BL's one which he had for some time and a PL mount he bought for the film not sure what he had on Chariot's I would have thought BL's as David Watkin was a lover of Arri

The video gear I had was 2 Sony portable Umatics which I persuaded Hugh to take as he only had a VHS he used on his Ad's

which I did not think would standup to the conditions in the Cameroon's in West Africa, he had video taps on both cameras one with a slow vidicon tube and the other I fitted a low light newicon both B/W as I knew that John did not use a lot of light.

I would use the vidicon in bright sun light or as the sun was going down or we where in heavy shaded trees I would change to the newicon and would watch John pack his lightmeters away as he knew there was not much light left for shooting

His favorite tool was a couple of of large Maglites with a piece of 1/4 blue which he would use to highlight Chris's eyes we did not use hardly any lighting on Ext the odd reflector the jungle set at Elstree was a different ball game

John would also use his trusty Polariod which took the now obsolite roll film B/W which he stored in a cooler box on the Camera truck. About a week into shooting the new BL packed up and Nobby our camera maintenace engineer was packed of to Munich to get it fixed as we carried on with the other BL

 

Super 35

I was up until then used to Panavision but John A and David W where lovers of the Arri system so John decided

the we would shoot what was now is Super 35 / Super Techniscope, I learnt a lot from watching John work and was a great shock when he died, he did not suffer fools, you could see he learnt his craft from the great camera men he worked with ie Geoff Unsworth and Stanley who had asked me to do The Shining but turned it down as I new his repution of never going home, lifes is to short ,John and Stanley gone

Chris and Andi

Chris was lovely dream to work with would asked me to show him bits on to video without Hugh seeing as Hugh did not even allow him to go to rushes. Andi looks as good today as she did then

 

Will post some more later

 

Best

 

Don

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Thank you for sharing these personal stories, Don. Marvelous insights!

 

Sorry for me coming back to your great post with delay as well, but I was kept busy by real-life (had a camera falling down lens-forward on hard ground to deal with) and then by a truly :wacko:-thread here and here.

 

 

London

I hope you also found some nice and memorable experiences despite being ripped off by our local highwaymen here <_< . Maybe the The Tall Blond Man with Two Black Shoes who is running for mayor will re-imburse you :rolleyes: ?! Or not, actually...

 

 

Camera Gear

I am always astonished NOW how many DoPs and directors owned their own camera gear. Originally, as a teen, I thought anyone did that, as much as we in our film group owned our film/video equipment :-) . It's only when you get somewhat in touch with the industry and the prices (first ordered ARRI catalogue in 1994, for example) that you realise that Steven Spielberg isn't onwing his Panaflex 35... oh no, that's wrong, actually... :P .

Yet now, I realise again how many filmmakers in the 1970s and 1980s actually did own their 35 gear, again, especially those around in Britain. Funny that! And frankly, I can really understand why.

 

 

Video Assist & Arriflex

Tube Umatics... gosh! And VHS!?? Was VHS widely in use then for such purposes, or was Hugh Hudson just opting for those because they were easier/cheaper to acquire for his commercial jobs?

Interesting to hear that your Umatic devices survived the shooting in Cameroon, while the Arriflex packed-up? Did you use any climate-stabilising add-ons then to keep the tape recorders happy, or am I totally mistaken in believing that your video gear was very fragile... in fact, maybe those Umatic machines could take more beating that modern miniature video gear could??

And why did the one BL pack up? What happened to the one? Shooting in the African Jungle must have been quite a demanding experience, especially with a large crew.

 

 

Light & Pola

Interesting your remark about the full-sized Maglites with 1/4 blue. How simple is that! Frankly, that would have never occured to me... And although I don't have a copy of "Greystoke" at hand, I do remember some portrait takes of Christopher Lambert where his eye holes were highlighted with an intense bluish gleam. At first, I thought this looked a bit freeky and overdone, and I wondered how they did that, but when you actually encounter primates live, their eyes have that strange glamour and intensity around. Based on that experience, it's a great effect, simple and poignant.

BTW, I gather all the apes used were like those Stanley Kubrick used in "2001", i.e. men in fur...

A propos Polaroid: just started a thread on that issue here as sheetfilm, packfilm and integralfilm might be on their way out like rollfilm before, if there isn't a white knight appearing in the next years...

 

 

As all my childhood heroes are increasingly passing away - from all different fields, not just film - without me having had the chance to meet them, I cannot other but envy you for having met Stanley Kubrick personally. I think people of my generation would'nt understand how one could turn down working with him, but based on the destructive influence his working practices had on quite many people, I think I should start grasping why you did it... :)

 

 

Please feel free to come back to this post of mine if you find some spare time, of course. In the meantime, we here are expecting a test reel made with a recently acquired Agfa Movexoom 10 MOS Electronic (geez, those guys new how to name a camera) back. Looking forward to see how that went in respect to a little pet project. Were you able to get to the heart of your Agfa matters?

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Hi Michael

 

London

 

 

I hate coming into town

 

Steven would never own a Panaflex even with his money you can only rent on

Hugh owned his gear from his days in AD's which a lot of commercial companies did whether it was a Arri IIC or a Mitchell S35 if you are working every day knocking out a quick 30 second AD you soon get you investment back, a friend of mine who does all the Peperomi AD's has camera's and motion control gear + studio

On features they mainly hire in due to the quantity of equipment and the backup + all hired gear is written off against tax.

 

 

 

Sony Umatics I had two 4800's which where one of the early portables which ran on 12v with two 12" monitors the only problem I had recorder wise was taking them from cold Air-con trucks into warm and then you get condensation on the head drum which still happens now. and cables dragging though mud in jungle

 

 

 

The apes suits were built by the famous Rick Baker who has done every ape or creature I can think of (American Werewolf Harry and the Hendersons) and Gorilla's in the Mist which I worked with him again

 

 

 

Stanley was a hard task master another man that owned is his camera gear which he stored in at home but I hear it got damp damage and I believe Joe Dunton bought it all up and was restoring it

The last time I saw him he was shooting Full Metal and he needed lots of loop earpiece's for a scene he was shooting at the old Beckton Gasworks which he had transformed into Veitnam and I took them down to him.

 

 

The Agfa I will get back to it when I have finished this job in the West End the Director wants to shoot another couple of nights

 

Best wishes

 

Don

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