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Jaron Berman

REDuser ethics

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Please stop with the personal attacks, everyone. Either refute an argument with logic and facts, or just let some bit of idiocy pass if you can't successfully counter it. I get as cynical as the next person, but don't let it run amok for too many posts...

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Please stop with the personal attacks, everyone. Either refute an argument with logic and facts, or just let some bit of idiocy pass if you can't successfully counter it. I get as cynical as the next person, but don't let it run amok for too many posts...

 

I am sorry David. I realize I shouldn't engaged in personal attacks. However, the fact that nobody has been banned in all of this back and forth on this thread is a testament to how much more freedom of speech is permitted on this site over Reduser.net, which is the subject of this thread afterall. Not one persons been banned OR had their posts deleted or edited. Say what you will about how this site has handled the issue of the RED camera, but there has always been both sides of the coin represented on these forums without any retribution from the Moderators which is definitely more than I can say for RedUser AND Dvxuser.

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As I keep trying to explain to the RedUser folks, this is a general cinematography site so there will naturally be a broader range of opinions on film and digital, rather than the generally pro-digital opinions on a digital camera user site. If this site were dedicated only to film shooters, then I would expect an even higher quotient of anti-digital opinions. But it's a mix, just as the industry has a mix, and film schools have a mix, of digital and film users -- and there are extreme opinions on both sides, and a lot of people in the middle.

 

So I would say in defense of RedUser... what else would you expect but careful moderation of anti-RED sentiments expressed among a bunch of people who are obviously positive enough about the RED to be users or potential users? Why would you not expect an overwhelmingly pro-digital sentiment there?

 

I mean, it's a no brainer when someone says "RED got a lot better reception at sites like DV.Com and DVInfo.Net than Cinematography.Com or the CML" -- of course it did!!! These people like shooting digitally, or they shoot digitally for their living, or else why are they hanging out in a digital camera user site? Cinematography.Com and the CML, however, have some people in it who shoot mainly film and hardly any digital, and have a totally different perspective on the issue.

 

It's a little like the incorrect notion that evolution means a continual improvement in a species or society. It has nothing to do with improvement or gradual superiority, it's just about change over time, and some changes are useful, some harmful, and some neutral. The change from film to digital is not a change for the better or the worse, it's just a change that reflects movements in technology, economics, and artistic sensibilities. Some aspects may prove to be superior, others may reflect a loss, and some will be neutral in impact or perceived effect.

 

While it's important to not be a luddite, it's also important to not always think that the latest thing is the best thing, to not think that anything newer is better than anything older. There is so much from the past to cherish, both technically and artistically, and it would be a loss to not stop and consider what should be salvaged or preserved before we move on, to not try to hold on to certain qualities that we have cherished over time.

 

Discussing the film vs. digital issue in terms of pixel resolution is becoming so early-2000's... ;) Time to move on and admit that there are aspects to the film image that perhaps aren't even measurable by instruments but are perceptible to the human eye... but also admit that, on the other hand, a difference that hardly makes a difference really isn't a difference, and eventually may reach the point where few filmmakers really care anymore about the (future) minor differences between film and digital. Hopefully film will disappear when no one cares anymore if it disappeared, not a day earlier than that. But that's wishful thinking...

 

As I work more and more with film scans of 35mm material, and do more D.I.'s, and shoot digitally as well, I'm finding that the whole sharpness / resolution thing is a lot more complicated than 2K vs. 4K. Sometimes 35mm anamorphic photography shot on slower film in crisp light just seems to have more depth of detail than any digital image I've seen... yet so much 35mm photography (even my own) seems to barely rise above the average HD-shot image either, resolution-wise, and I can't always explain why.

 

So if one expert claims that some piece of 35mm photography seems to exceed 4K in resolution and some other expert says that it barely exceeds 720 lines... I believe that both people truly believe what they are saying and can provide examples to back it up. Dave Keighley, who does the IMAX blow-ups using his DMR process, said that the 35mm anamorphic IP he got for "Batman Begins" needed to be scanned at 6K for some day exterior scenes, and this was from a one-generation removed piece of film. He knows what he's talking about and he's blown-up just about every format known to man to IMAX at some point. On the other hand, I've seen 2K scans that seem to be resolving every grain on a piece of 35mm film, and you figure there can't be more visual detail that at the grain level on a piece of film.

 

This is why I think the average 35mm movie negative is probably between 2K and 4K in practical resolution, and the typical 35mm projection is between 1K and 2K. So if someone says HD projection is comparable to 35mm projection, I think they aren't far from the truth. However, then we fall right back into the other issue, that there's a lot more to the film image than resolution & detail.

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So I would say in defense of RedUser... what else would you expect but careful moderation of anti-RED sentiments expressed among a bunch of people who are obviously positive enough about the RED to be users or potential users? Why would you not expect an overwhelmingly pro-digital sentiment there?

 

I don't have a problem with them moderating blatant anti-RED sentiment. I think what amazes me about the REDuser site is how real RED users and owners are putting up REAL problems they are having and looking for real solutions but all they get is flamed by other members who may or may not have ever even shot a RED camera but yet they still insult instead of help. I come here and spend most of my time in the Super 8 forums but when I mention a problem I have, I get support from other members who might know how to fix a problem or at least sympathy if something wasn't my fault and was some sort of equipment malfunction.

 

I remember a thread on here awhile ago about Kodak's 310 batch of Ektachrome 64t stock that was having transport issues. As much as some of us like to shoot Super 8, we don't get into fanboyism and assume that someone must be inept or lying about said issue. We simply take note of it, help if we can, or avoid the 310 batch if we are extra cautious.

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Hi Jim,

 

Just to make it clear I am not calling you a liar.

 

Was Joanne authorised to sign posts 'Jim' or are you saying the email was in some way altered.

 

If mails are sometimes signed on your behalf I can now understand why we sometimes have misunderstandings.

 

My best,

 

Stephen

 

Stephen... the date on that post was Dec. 2005, a day or two after the "decision" was made to do this project. At that time, there were two of us on the RED team, Ted and I. There were three emails addresses at that time... 4K@red.com was one of them and designated as the "general" company email address. Very early in 2006, that email address was assigned to Joanne. So anything coming after Feb 2006 would have been from her. We were pretty busy at that time designing, engineering and prototyping the camera... and getting ready for our 1st NAB... that there probably wasn't enough supervision of what responses were made from that address. No excuses, just the way it was. BTW, if there is a physical address listed for RED Digital somewhere, it is not my home address... and if you call the RED phone number, I am not the one designated to answer the call.

 

Your posts seem more and more pointed at finding some discrepancy in my presentation than actually contributing to useful info about RED. I don't quite get it. You are a smart guy with plenty to offer. We communicate behind the scenes. If you have questions or inferences like this one, they could easily be cleared up in a quick email rather than forcing me to post clarifications on this board. If I don't respond to your post, then I must be lying about 4K@red.com. Not sure why you feel it is necessary to do this.

 

Jim

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Just as note apart, 4K@red.com and Joanne are undissociated when I placed all my reservations as customer in 2006. That one was her company's email address.

 

EDIT -- Sounds funny some controversies. At least, to me.

Edited by Emanuel A Guedes

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Just as note apart, 4K@red.com and Joanne are undissociated when I placed all my reservations as customer in 2006. That one was her company's email address.

 

EDIT -- Sounds funny some controversies. At least, to me.

<PS>

 

Or should I say ' Some controversies sound funny ' ? In this case, instead ' at least, to me ', I should ask ' I'm sorry for my non-native input ' or am I wrong here?

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I think I still have the dubious honour of being the shortest lived member of that forum. Jared had me booted and banned within 30 seconds.

 

With the comment, "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

 

Odd thing is that I had no problem re-posting a few times using a Yahoo account and he had no idea it was me. Oh well I guess he needs better IP address blocking software.

 

I'm sure they have snipers up on towers there 24hrs a day looking for Phil Rhodes. Geez if Phil put a toe onto their property Jared would have it machine gunned off in two seconds. Be careful Phil :D

 

Any way we don't want another "forum war" we love our Red brothers and the Red camera.

 

R,

I was actually doing a Google search for Information on Richard's recent indy film when I came upon that very post!

R Boddington's 27 minutes of fame According to the post itself, the content was deleted by Jarred Land 27 minutes after Richard signed in, but of course may have been banned much sooner! We're coming up to the second anniversary of this momentous event. So remember Halloween also celebrates the Martyrdom of Saint Boddington.:-)

 

That whole DVXUser thread is quite surreal with the level of sycophantic excess shown. It's hilarous in places if you have the time and stomach for it.

A lot of 'blasphemers' have had their posts removed entirely my the moderators, which is really amatuerish, since the software apparently then re-numbers everything making the conversation impossible to follow. Oddly, while the original posts have gone, they remain fossilized in the responses of other posters.

 

This thread is worth another read too if you have time on your hands.

I have to thank Rauiri Robinson for the phrase: "Welcome to Club Irony Bypass". I crack up every time I think of that one.

You know, I think that's one of the main differences between this forum and some others I could mention: people make jokes here that are actually funny :D

 

 

Oh. And I'm still waiting to see some RED footage on the big screen.

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Oh. And I'm still waiting to see some RED footage on the big screen.

I'm interested in seeing not just any Red footage, but rather something well shot. "Manure" may be the first, any idea when it'll be released?

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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I'm interested in seeing not just any Red footage, but rather something well shot. "Manure" may be the first, any idea when it'll be released?

-- J.S.

IMDB just says "2009". Of course, they have to find a distributor first. I think David said something to the effect that when he finds out, so will everybody else probably.

 

It does sound like a pretty good film, leaving aside all considerations of how it was shot.

 

But what a masterpiece of ironic allegory. The saga of two early '60s American businessmen, approaching late middle age and facing the bleak realization that their only (and rapidly-devaluing) business skills are based entirely around three decades of marketing ... well ... bullshit!

 

And it's shot with the RED camera. It's all there I tell you :lol:

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I was actually doing a Google search for Information on Richard's recent indy film when I came upon that very post!

R Boddington's 27 minutes of fame According to the post itself, the content was deleted by Jarred Land 27 minutes after Richard signed in, but of course may have been banned much sooner! We're coming up to the second anniversary of this momentous event. So remember Halloween also celebrates the Martyrdom of Saint Boddington.:-)

 

That's pretty funny it just says "Hey Jim I found you!"

 

Then....

 

Banned.

 

Those where the good ol' days. Now Jim and I are best buddies and the RED is sweeping the globe.

 

R,

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That's pretty funny it just says "Hey Jim I found you!"

 

Then....

 

Banned.

 

Those where the good ol' days. Now Jim and I are best buddies and the RED is sweeping the globe.

 

R,

 

Richard,

 

What are you going to shoot your next feature on? having made money on your last 35mm film will you give RED a chance?

 

Stephen

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Richard,

 

What are you going to shoot your next feature on? having made money on your last 35mm film will you give RED a chance?

 

Stephen

 

Shhhhhhh, the walls have ears :D

 

How about the HPX 500? Looks pretty decent.

 

R,

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That's pretty funny it just says "Hey Jim I found you!"

 

Then....

 

Banned.

 

Those where the good ol' days. Now Jim and I are best buddies and the RED is sweeping the globe.

 

R,

 

 

It's no wonder the people on this forum were such "RED-haters". Look at the mean and loveless environment they grew up in.

 

Jay A Kelly hates cinematography.com

Pixelated hates cinematography.com

Acehole hates cinematography.com

Zakforrest hates cinematography.com

MojoTrancer hates cinematography.com

Kalone hates cinematography.com

John Allardyce hates R.Boddington

John Allardyce hates R.Boddington 2

 

I hope this has been a growth experience for all of us, and not a malignant one ;)

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John Allardyce hates R.Boddington

John Allardyce hates R.Boddington 2

 

I hope this has been a growth experience for all of us, and not a malignant one ;)

 

A particularly embarrassing example of not counting to ten before posting....my apologies to all and sundry, particularly Richard, who didn't deserve such an ad hominem attack.

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A particularly embarrassing example of not counting to ten before posting....my apologies to all and sundry, particularly Richard, who didn't deserve such an ad hominem attack.

Oh drat. I realize now that that was a quote of the same post once in part, and once in full.

I also spelled your name wrong!

So was it you who deleted the original post then?

One thing I like about cinematography.com, what is said on this forum, STAYS on this forum.

But beware, nothing is ever permanently erased on the Internet!

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