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Anamorphic standard 16mm


Mark Williams

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I had a friend shoot an anamorphic short film with his Bolex one summer. He had an anamorphic projection lens for his 16mm projector and somehow rigged it up to his wind up Bolex. I can't remember how he did it but the results were fantastic. We rigged a big screen up in our loft and he filled that baby up. I think he shot Plus-X B&W reversal stock, cut it and projected the original. He had a cassette running with music as his sound track. His film was a "Stan Brakhage" esque Western, photographed in Colorado. Those B&W reversal films are very beautiful if you can project the original. Somehow I ended up with the lens. Kowa 2X Anamorphic for Bell & Howell.

 

post-3699-1205272785.jpg

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I guess it depends on what you mean by a viable mainstream format! ;)

 

I note that standard 16 has actually had a tiny resurgence lately and theres been a couple of blowups from standard 16 to 35mm.

 

Theres not really any grain problems with Super 16 in telecine especially. Telecine can often remove grain in fact. I think the problems you talk of in relation to HDTV in the u.k is that the BBC aren't keen because the grain interferes with their low bitrate digital compression systems they are using. People also suspect that their tests were a worst case scenario with 500ASA stock. Obviously grain increases with the speed of the stock. I can't imagine a Super 16 film shot on 50ASA having that much grain. The BBC are being funny about it however.

 

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Exactly

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I'm not sure he implied you said it, just that you meant it! ;)

I wasn't suggesting that you should define it, hence the "we"!

 

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Well what David said was

 

So I'm not going to get into a discussion as to whether this imaginary 1.5X anamorphic 16mm format is better than Super-16...

AND I can most assuredly tell you that I never meant to imply a frame size that is obviously smaller could be better thats plain daft

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I think it's fine here. It could fit in many places however as I have implied. It is a general problem these days to see things as vs, and in competition. This is not neccesarily the case.

 

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Disagree at a minimum the general board!

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I know! It's really hard. Things are hidden in laguage and phrases and stuff and we can end up in being forced into thinking a certain way because that is the way things are portrayed as being.

 

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Not thinking a certain way so much as taking for granted without question. For example there was a thread about A golfer killing a hawk when we kill millions of animals everday. Eating a dog or a cat is cruel barbaric and eating a cow is fine. Killing an animal is abhorent but eating one is OK A golfer killing a predator is evil while a predator killing a bird is fine. Having a discussion on the rights and wrongs of a birds end is a good feeling while millions die of starvation would love to cook the dead bird. OR how an entire country has been misled regarding the EU. I could go on but itd get boring.

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Why do you assume this? Having a wider aspect ratio might be seen as quite commercial these days. As more and more TV's go 16:9, more and more people are shooting scope or cropping to scope so it can still look letterboxed and hence more cinematic! ;)

 

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I dont assume this I just look at the format being used and comply. Hmm imagine all those TV producers taking on board what you said and ignoring the HDTV Or widescreen standard in favour of their own. Perhaps they already do? What do I know.

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I don't think people will crop it for you. They would be more bothered about Super 16 being pillarboxed, but theres a whole tradition of letterboxing.

 

Anyway, by the time you've shot your film the trends could have changed! :)

 

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Yeah probably and we could have 2:1 TVs in the future so really Id be future proofing

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You have a lot of dichotomys going on in your head. That's okay, but at some point you will probably find you need to resolve some of them.

 

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Not really I plan to shoot in 2:1 frame it for 1:85 present the film in 2:1 and let them decide.

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Earlier in this mail you were talking about a viable mainstream format, and how standard 16 wasn't one.

 

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No i never said that I said standard 16 is finished as a viable format if it cant compete.

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QUOTE

 

Now you are talking about how the iscorama isn't a weird lens, but the truth is that it's only really been used much in amateur filmmaking circles a little, or most of all for projecting existing film prints. In the world of cinematography, it's kind of an obscure lens. There's nothing wrong with it being weird however, and people who do things that aren't popular are often very intelligent people too.

 

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The Iscorama isnt weird and its not obscure. It is in fact an anamorphic adapter nothing more nothing less to give it some kind of life through descriptive metaphores is sweet but not helpful.

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I'm aware that not everything happens in america (pssst I'm in the u.k.) but your referance to the states shows you have an awareness of the dominance of America in this field.

 

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Yes Congratulations My comment was more in regard to some in America seeing it as being the centre of the world.In this case I was alluding to your statement the Iscorama is outside untested etc when David seemed to me to be referring to the short life of the todd AO 16MM Format that was setup to initially compete with super 16 but flopped due to different film labs gave varying degrees of quality with deluxe being the best. However since then things have moved on.

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I don't think you need to conform over aspect ratio. It's definitely not neccesary.

I'm afraid that "when you make it" then you are unlikely to have the freedom to try things your way.

 

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Nobody can tell you what you do in your own time.

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I note you talk about having a career, and if you are trying to have a career it seems that you would be better trying to get some experience and to get on the carreer ladder than to be experimenting with obscure lenses and stuff that aren't really used in the industry.

 

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The lens is not obscure you keep repeating this??? It a professionally made anamorphic lens the obscure lens you refer to was probably the one David was refering to and made for the todd AO 16MM format.

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It's very difficult to have any kind of film career in the uk. There isn't much of a native film industry here. We used to have a television industry but Thatcher destroyed it and it's preety much all gone now.

 

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Its the same everywhere if you want something done you have to do it yourself

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Maybe what you should do is to try and get a position as a runner on a film shoot.

 

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Why?So I can work for free given all the lousy jobs and shut out of any promotion? I think your thinking of the days when we had an industry that had a career ladder.

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I'm sure theres lots of no-budget productions listed on Mandy and the like and then you could get to know people and learn stuff on other peoples productions instead of having to expend a lot of your own money trying to make things work.

 

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There was me thinking you thought I should try and experiment..

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Theres actually been quite a few films made in 2:1, although most of them are very much in the past now. Storraro still loves it tho and I saw another film shot in that aspect ratio recently too but I can't remember what it was now! :)

 

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If your interested freya here's a link to my latest project.

 

http://www.freewebs.com/stormdrainfilm/index%20.html

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I think it's fine here. It could fit in many places however as I have implied. It is a general problem these days to see things as vs, and in competition. This is not neccesarily the case.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Disagree at a minimum the general board!

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

:)

 

I know! It's really hard. Things are hidden in laguage and phrases and stuff and we can end up in being forced into thinking a certain way because that is the way things are portrayed as being.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

Not thinking a certain way so much as taking for granted without question. For example there was a thread about A golfer killing a hawk when we kill millions of animals everday. Eating a dog or a cat is cruel barbaric and eating a cow is fine. Killing an animal is abhorent but eating one is OK A golfer killing a predator is evil while a predator killing a bird is fine. Having a discussion on the rights and wrongs of a birds end is a good feeling while millions die of starvation would love to cook the dead bird. OR how an entire country has been misled regarding the EU. I could go on but itd get boring.

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Well not sure if you know but it was me that was arguing the case for the bird in that thread mostly, so to speak, and I'm a vegetarian. However it was more to do with the cruelty involved. (Obviously theres plenty of cruelty goes on in the food industry too of course but I suspect the vast majority of people don't know the real truth about what goes on there). It's also one thing to kill an animal for food and another just out of cruelty. Sadly the millions dying of starvation are not in the same place as the dead bird. In fact we throw away more than enough food in western countries to feed the people dying of starvation. I could go on about the thics of eating meat and the problems related to it including feeding the world but that would also be boring.

 

Anyway I'm not sure what you thought was being taken for granted exactly but perhaps it wasn't.

 

Why do you assume this? Having a wider aspect ratio might be seen as quite commercial these days. As more and more TV's go 16:9, more and more people are shooting scope or cropping to scope so it can still look letterboxed and hence more cinematic! ;)

 

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I dont assume this I just look at the format being used and comply. Hmm imagine all those TV producers taking on board what you said and ignoring the HDTV Or widescreen standard in favour of their own. Perhaps they already do? What do I know.

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They kind of did for a while in the u.k. They invented a new sort of standard of 14:9 but it's gone out of fashion now.

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I don't think people will crop it for you. They would be more bothered about Super 16 being pillarboxed, but theres a whole tradition of letterboxing.

 

Anyway, by the time you've shot your film the trends could have changed! :)

 

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Yeah probably and we could have 2:1 TVs in the future so really Id be future proofing

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

It honestly wouldn't suprise me! Aren't widescreen computer monitors already 16:10 or something?

 

 

You have a lot of dichotomys going on in your head. That's okay, but at some point you will probably find you need to resolve some of them.

 

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Not really I plan to shoot in 2:1 frame it for 1:85 present the film in 2:1 and let them decide.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

I meant all kinds of stuff really, but life is like that, as we go on we resolve things and work out exactly how we are going to go about things. At least that's been my experience.

 

As for framing for 1.85:1, aren't you going to compromise your work if it's shot for 1.85:1 but shown in 2:1?

 

I'm aware that not everything happens in america (pssst I'm in the u.k.) but your referance to the states shows you have an awareness of the dominance of America in this field.

 

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Yes Congratulations My comment was more in regard to some in America seeing it as being the centre of the world.In this case I was alluding to your statement the Iscorama is outside untested etc when David seemed to me to be referring to the short life of the todd AO 16MM Format that was setup to initially compete with super 16 but flopped due to different film labs gave varying degrees of quality with deluxe being the best. However since then things have moved on.

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Not sure why you congratulate me? The fact I'm in the u.k. isn't filling me with pleasure right now! ;)

I also didn't say it was an untested lens, just suggested it's never really been used in proffesional cinematography circles.

 

 

I'm afraid that "when you make it" then you are unlikely to have the freedom to try things your way.

 

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Nobody can tell you what you do in your own time.

--------------------------------------------------

 

That's exactly what I mean.

 

I note you talk about having a career, and if you are trying to have a career it seems that you would be better trying to get some experience and to get on the carreer ladder than to be experimenting with obscure lenses and stuff that aren't really used in the industry.

 

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The lens is not obscure you keep repeating this??? It a professionally made anamorphic lens the obscure lens you refer to was probably the one David was refering to and made for the todd AO 16MM format.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

No I just mean that it's an obscure lens in the film industry. Theres a lot of them about and I'm sure they are somewhat well made up to a point but they aren't used in the "film world" as you put it earlier..

 

It's very difficult to have any kind of film career in the uk. There isn't much of a native film industry here. We used to have a television industry but Thatcher destroyed it and it's preety much all gone now.

 

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Its the same everywhere if you want something done you have to do it yourself

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I would agree with you but now you are talking about DIY as opposed to having a carrer in the film industry.

 

 

Maybe what you should do is to try and get a position as a runner on a film shoot.

 

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Why?So I can work for free given all the lousy jobs and shut out of any promotion? I think your thinking of the days when we had an industry that had a career ladder.

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Well there isn't much of an industry here at all so theres not really any kind of ladder but if you get to meet the right people and become pals then you could possibly manage to get on what real shoots there are eventually if you are lucky and charismatic etc etc etc. ;)

 

 

I'm sure theres lots of no-budget productions listed on Mandy and the like and then you could get to know people and learn stuff on other peoples productions instead of having to expend a lot of your own money trying to make things work.

 

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There was me thinking you thought I should try and experiment..

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I do think you should experiment.

 

I'm playing devils advocate a bit to get you to think a bit about what you're saying in terms of having a carrer and competing in the dog eat dog world out there, because I suspect this isn't actually what you want to do, and that's why you are intrested in the Anamorphic lens. :)

 

You don't need to compete, or for that matter to conform, you can step aside and do whatever you want!

 

OTOH if you genuinely want to try and be a part of the industry and do the career thing then I'm not meaning to put you off either. You have to decide what you want to do. I'm just trying hard to help you think about it.

 

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If your interested freya here's a link to my latest project.

 

http://www.freewebs.com/stormdrainfilm/index%20.html

 

 

It didn't all render properly on this computer for some reason but I'm liking what I saw of the layout and design of your page! I'll probably get to look at it properly tommorow!

 

Thanks for sharing! :)

 

love

 

Freya

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I had a friend shoot an anamorphic short film with his Bolex one summer. He had an anamorphic projection lens for his 16mm projector and somehow rigged it up to his wind up Bolex. I can't remember how he did it but the results were fantastic. We rigged a big screen up in our loft and he filled that baby up. I think he shot Plus-X B&W reversal stock, cut it and projected the original. He had a cassette running with music as his sound track. His film was a "Stan Brakhage" esque Western, photographed in Colorado. Those B&W reversal films are very beautiful if you can project the original. Somehow I ended up with the lens. Kowa 2X Anamorphic for Bell & Howell.

 

A brakhage western! Sounds really intresting! Brakhage meets El Topo maybe!

I can't quite imagine brakhage in B&W tho!

 

You've made me want to see the film now! :)

 

love

 

Freya

Edited by Freya Black
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I had a friend shoot an anamorphic short film with his Bolex one summer. He had an anamorphic projection lens for his 16mm projector and somehow rigged it up to his wind up Bolex. I can't remember how he did it but the results were fantastic. We rigged a big screen up in our loft and he filled that baby up. I think he shot Plus-X B&W reversal stock, cut it and projected the original. He had a cassette running with music as his sound track. His film was a "Stan Brakhage" esque Western, photographed in Colorado. Those B&W reversal films are very beautiful if you can project the original. Somehow I ended up with the lens. Kowa 2X Anamorphic for Bell & Howell.

 

post-3699-1205272785.jpg

 

Hi John. I sent you a PM.

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Hi Freya

 

Yes I think in general terms we can agree on most things. Although perhaps not about the meaning of a career. A career of future in film making isnt dependent on others to make it for you. As you point out there is no longer a film industry here and thanks to the huge popularity of media studies and the abundnce and cheapness and accessability many now want to get in on a very small business. If you are lucky enough to get in on something many times you will ha e to pay for the privelage and consider yourself lucky. The UK often comes out with a low standard in films do you really want to learn how to make more? Some of the very best ways to learn are frommaking your own stuff and of course obviously you need to see how its all done. But really if you can pay a professional crew as long as you do your bit they will be fine. I have never been a runner and probably wont be. Simply because the chances are few and far between often here films get made by rich people although not always who may have their own ambitions. Anyway gotta go. Im getting an ear bashing from samantha..

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QUOTE

Well not sure if you know but it was me that was arguing the case for the bird in that thread mostly, so to speak, and I'm a vegetarian. However it was more to do with the cruelty involved. (Obviously theres plenty of cruelty goes on in the food industry too of course but I suspect the vast majority of people don't know the real truth about what goes on there). It's also one thing to kill an animal for food and another just out of cruelty. Sadly the millions dying of starvation are not in the same place as the dead bird. In fact we throw away more than enough food in western countries to feed the people dying of starvation. I could go on about the thics of eating meat and the problems related to it including feeding the world but that would also be boring.

 

Anyway I'm not sure what you thought was being taken for granted exactly but perhaps it wasn't

 

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Sorry Freya dont agree killing animals is no longer neccesary we could grow meat in the lab. Killing for food? We eat far more food than we need. And its not just food we kill animals for. Here in the UK we wipe out millions because some government research laboratory leaked a disease and we need to protect our walking food stock by killing them all and burning the lot. While our government lets our farmers survive on a pittance often losing money while the EU subsidises french farmers Nothing to do with the planned concreting of the south turning farmland into Houses? Yeah we dont kill animals for sport? We kill them for profit convenience or any other reason. If its sport you want then go fishing there its acceptable.

We are like a disease suffocating the planet all of nature and all of life is under threat from our caring ways. Global warming is taking a backseat to our superior intellect. Were so clever we even know were going to wipe ourselves out and yet were gonna do it anyway. We are a strange lot. Caring when it affects us directly and we have an audience and yet couldnt care less when no ones looking.

 

I like my potatoes roasted.

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---------------------------------------------------------

 

QUOTE

 

Now you are talking about how the iscorama isn't a weird lens, but the truth is that it's only really been used much in amateur filmmaking circles a little, or most of all for projecting existing film prints. In the world of cinematography, it's kind of an obscure lens. There's nothing wrong with it being weird however, and people who do things that aren't popular are often very intelligent people too.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

The Iscorama isnt weird and its not obscure. It is in fact an anamorphic adapter nothing more nothing less to give it some kind of life through descriptive metaphores is sweet but not helpful.

-------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------

The lens is not obscure you keep repeating this??? It a professionally made anamorphic lens the obscure lens you refer to was probably the one David was refering to and made for the todd AO 16MM format.

-----------------------------------------------------

 

What a confusing post. Damnear impossible to keep track of who said what.

 

The Iscorama can't be used for projecting existing film prints because it has a 1.5x squeeze and most existing prints will have a 2x squeeze.

 

Isco tried to introduce a 35mm 1.5x system for 1.85:1, Iscovision. That also didn't catch on.

 

When I was working neg prep, some of the other people in the department had trouble telling whether or not the film they were working on was squeezed. That made me realize that having two squeeze ratio standards can cause confusion in the lab.

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Hi Leo The idea would be to film with a standard 16mm camera with an anamorphic lens and then have a 2K Digital transfer You can then do all your post effects before either printing out to 35mm or any other format you wish unsqueezed.

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Hi Mark,

Ive shot R16 with round front Lomo Anamorphics before on a PL mount R16 SR2 for a video finish. It was a short and it was all shot (apart from a DV and animation segment) with one FL 32mm lens (originally for 35mm obviously) in the spirit of an experiment as part of a graduate production.

From my experience it's not necessarily a viable production pathway in particular when you do the math on negative area compared to cropped S16 but we did it for various creative and practical reasons including the fact we had the R16 SR2 and it was something I had wanted to try for a long time. After shooting with it for 7 days all I can really relate is that it was a big shift for me to go from an exposure base of T2 which I usually shoot around on 16mm and having to light it up to a F4 or 5.6. Because the lens was fairly long I lit most of the film from above and that was also a new experience.

As far as it competing with S16 cropped or otherwise I don't really see why it would as R16 is mostly confined to the realm of art or education projects these days and most 'competitive' productions would opt for S16. Maybe thats been said already, I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread. This has been discussed here before (infact it was this sight which sparked the idea several years ago) and its worth having a look at if you havent already, someone had posted some clips.

I would post some images but I'm nervous about doing that without asking the permission of the director and producer who are in Japan but if theres interest I just might try and rip some off the dvd.

Best wishes,

Sasha

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I have one still from set which I hope the crew don't mind me posting, its not particularly informative because you can't see the lens but I hope it gives some idea that its at least possible if not practical. This was a very complicated grip and lighting setup and it was quite tough pulling an exposure out of the eight rolling Xray lightboxes on set (yes, you read that correctly) which you can see some of in the background. I should also say I shot most of this film rated 1/2 a stop under on the various stocks I used and corrected semi successfully in TK although it was a bit of a battle. Minimum focus was a constant headache.

post-12158-1205909492.jpg

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Hi Sasha

 

Sounds really great! What Im trying to do though is use a 1.5 anamorphic lens with a light loss of less than a third of a stop and will mean the difference between a standard 16 squeezed frame with anamorphic adapter and a super16 frame will be about 15%. Although for me it just wouldn't be practical with 2x anamorphic.

 

Hi Rolando

 

The panny Looks like a great idea that works! The kowa looked nice perhaps a bit to wide for my taste. I liked the shot with the kids playing in front and the ship leaving in the background.

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QUOTE

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Sorry Freya dont agree killing animals is no longer neccesary

 

I didn't actually say that killing animals for meat was no longer neccesary (although I would obviously feel that way), but I would question why you think that it is? Meat eating is actually preety bad for the environment too. I'm not massively keen to get into all this tho because as I've already said it's rather boring, and as a vegetarian I have been dragged into these discussions over and over so you get preety tired of saying the same stuff to people who have no intrest in listening, but from the perspective of both the environment and feeding the people of the world there is no question that a meat free world would be the best option.

Edited by Freya Black
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Hi Freya

 

Meat can be grown in the lab You could grow any part of an animal in isolation. This means no animal needs to suffer. If this was done on a large enough scale then it should be economicly viable. Meat eating when you think about it is a gross thing to do. The sooner we can get away from it the better I reckon. I still eat chicken turkey fish eggs and milk and really I think it contains essential nutrients not always known by science. However thats an opinion Dont want to drag the thread down with this unless you want to start a new one in general discussion?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Tried the 54 iscorama anamorphic lens with an EX-1 Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of chromatic aberration.

 

Anamorphic lens attached

http://www.freewebs.com/markwilliams/Anamorph.png

 

Not attached

http://www.freewebs.com/markwilliams/without.png

 

I dont know now whether this is good enough to use on my standard 16mm Arriflex BL Or not. Wondered what others might think?

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Tried the 54 iscorama anamorphic lens with an EX-1 Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of chromatic aberration.

 

Anamorphic lens attached

http://www.freewebs.com/markwilliams/Anamorph.png

 

Not attached

http://www.freewebs.com/markwilliams/without.png

 

I dont know now whether this is good enough to use on my standard 16mm Arriflex BL Or not. Wondered what others might think?

 

The Anamorphic shot looks slightly out of focus or maybe it is just a bit soft?

Were you quite close to the books when videoing?

Anamorphic lenses often have trouble focusing on nearby things.

If you were near you might want to go further away and give it a go.

 

love

 

Freya

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I dont know now whether this is good enough to use on my standard 16mm Arriflex BL Or not. Wondered what others might think?

 

Looks like it's gonna be soft. What lens do you have for the BL? That will make a difference.

 

Ultimately you just have to shoot some tests.

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