Why is this legal?

[Phil Rhodes]

http://www.divafilms.co.uk

PAID WORK PLACEMENTS IN THE FILM INDUSTRY Now in its second year the

Skillset Graduate Fellowship Programme provides up to 11 professionals

from Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) communities with paid work

placements lasting up to one year in some of the leading film

businesses. Placements cover a variety of disciplines from Script...

 

The mind boggles.

[Guest]

BAME??????

 

Oh that is hilarious!!!

 

Problem Phil is that you are a WEG (White English Guy), you need to get BAME status some how.

 

R,

[Adam Frisch FSF]

Well, the film industry is terribly singular and ethnically conform (it's white guys, basically) in the world, so although I'm not a fan of government programs or quotas - maybe it's not such a bad thing?

[Dominic Case]

The mind boggles.

Not sure what your point is here, Phil.

 

Have a look at the site you provided the link to. Look at the participants in the program. What is mind-boggling?

 

They all seem to have a very positive view of how to get on.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I agree that generally I am against programs which force to ascription of race, but, as was mentioned, white people do dominate overall, so it's always good to offer opportunities. I wish it was, however, moreso an opportunity for anyone in poverty then anyone of x or y "race."

[Phil Rhodes]

> What is mind-boggling?

 

The fact that it's legal!

 

It's racism.

 

Positive discrimination is an oxymoron.

 

P

[Guest]

Well, the film industry is terribly singular and ethnically conform (it's white guys, basically) in the world, so although I'm not a fan of government programs or quotas - maybe it's not such a bad thing?

 

 

I agree that generally I am against programs which force to ascription of race, but, as was mentioned, white people do dominate overall, so it's always good to offer opportunities. I wish it was, however, moreso an opportunity for anyone in poverty then anyone of x or y "race."

 

It's all well and good for you guys to take that position, UNTIL, you two are told you can't have a job in the industry because you are white males.

 

What then? Will you still support these programs?

 

R,

[Adrian Sierkowski]

There is nothing at all fair when you are dealing with race. There have been atrocities committed by those in power for a long time, and programs like this while good intentioned also cause animosity because we often lack the empathy needed to put ourselves in other culture's shoes. I'd not want to loose a job over it, of course. Then again, if it was based upon quotas and race entirely, and not on talent and ability, then I'm not sure I'd want to be on such a production. But, like I said, there is no solution to the "race issue," and sadly notions of race and racism are still deeply entrenched in most western governments and societies. But hey, that's just my opinion and of course you all are welcome to your own.

[Phil Rhodes]

My fear is that positive discrimination may build to the point where it is seen as an atrocity in itself.

 

I am not a cultural or historical revisionist, by which I mean I am not responsible for the past transgressions of my ancestors. The only way to stop discrimination is to stop discriminating, not by trying to counteract it with some notional and probably impossible force for good. The situation we're talking about here is like giving random people free televisions because sometimes other people have televisions stolen from them.

 

P

[Adrian Sierkowski]

I agree with you Phil. But, sadly, it's such an entrenched notion. I got the same irksome feeling when I heard that a "white only" scholarship program was forced out of existence here in the US.

[James Steven Beverly]

Hey man, just be thankful you are a white guy, because you need every advantage you can get in this business and if being white helps you a little bit, accept the good fortune, but don't begrudge an opportunity for other races to get their shot. Man, EVERYBODY needs to have a chance to tell their stories. I just hope it isn't some bullshit scam and these guys and gals get a chance. I actually make it a point to write some choice roles and try to include minorities and older women in every script I write. Why not let EVERYBODY play. Sometimes when the odds are stacked against you, you need a little bit of an edge just to even the playing field. Capish?! B)

[Tim O'Connor]

Growing up in Boston, I remember how forced bussing to integrate the schools was a flawed attempt (though

when is there a perfect attempt?) that caused a lot of division and misunderstanding and resentment. People in

neighborhoods felt that they were losing their rights to send their children to their neighborhood schools in order to

redress injustices committed not by them but by others. Why should they pay? A good question but a tough one when

somebody has to pay. Judges here have ordered men to pay chiild support even when DNA testing proved those men weren't the fathers and had had only brief connections with the single women parents. Lots of people I know who scored

high on the civil service police and fire exams were not called while other people in certain affirmative action categories, even though they had lower test scores, were accepted into the academies.

 

I mention all this because I'm reminded of my dismay when t-shirts with Make Black Film were popular some years ago. I think that I understood the motivation behind wearing those t-shirts but I always wondered if there weren't a more positive, less divisive way to express it.

[Dominic Case]

It's all well and good for you guys to take that position, UNTIL, you two are told you can't have a job in the industry because you are white males.

 

What then? Will you still support these programs?

I'm not sure about this particular program, but very often these affirmative action positions are specially funded government programs. It's not a case of "youcan't have a job because you are a white male" - you still get that job: the other positions are usually short-term, and additional. It's not the same as quotas.

 

In any case, look at almost any industry, educational program, whatever. Compare the proportion of minority groups (women, ethnic, etc) with the working populaiton at large. Almost invariably you will find that the higher echelons are white & male heavy, the lower jobs have more females and members of racial or cultural minorities.

 

Ask yourself if that is just a totally natural course of events, or if there isn't consistent, subtle or not so subtle, bias against those groups. How else has it come about?

 

Then read the first quote in this message again: put put yourself in a different position. Try: "It's all well and good for you to take that position, UNTIL, you are told you can't have a job in the industry because you are an ethnic female."

 

Has it happened? It happens, insidiously, all the time.

 

THEN will you support these programs?

[Tim O'Connor]

I'm not sure about this particular program, but very often these affirmative action positions are specially funded government programs. It's not a case of "youcan't have a job because you are a white male" - you still get that job: the other positions are usually short-term, and additional. It's not the same as quotas.

 

In any case, look at almost any industry, educational program, whatever. Compare the proportion of minority groups (women, ethnic, etc) with the working populaiton at large. Almost invariably you will find that the higher echelons are white & male heavy, the lower jobs have more females and members of racial or cultural minorities.

 

Ask yourself if that is just a totally natural course of events, or if there isn't consistent, subtle or not so subtle, bias against those groups. How else has it come about?

 

Then read the first quote in this message again: put put yourself in a different position. Try: "It's all well and good for you to take that position, UNTIL, you are told you can't have a job in the industry because you are an ethnic female."

 

Has it happened? It happens, insidiously, all the time.

 

THEN will you support these programs?

 

Yes, it's wrong to tell somebody " you can't have a job in the industry because you are an ethnic female." but is the solution to tell somebody else that he or she can't have the job because this job is for ethnic females only?

 

You make a good point but this is a daunting problem. It's an unfair situation that doesn't seem to have a fair solution. Doing away with the poll taxes in the American South which prevented non-whites from voting was as necessary as abolishing any unfair discriminatory practice. Such corrective action is obviously fair, even though such actions have often been implemented when long overdue. President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation but a hundred years later there was still the need for a massive civil rights movement in the U.S..

 

There is a great need to make things right but still with many programs aimed at rectifying unfairness in society, when those programs cause new unfairness then they prove the old adage "Two wrongs don't make a right."

[Guest]

In any case, look at almost any industry, educational program, whatever. Compare the proportion of minority groups (women, ethnic, etc) with the working populaiton at large. Almost invariably you will find that the higher echelons are white & male heavy, the lower jobs have more females and members of racial or cultural minorities.

 

Ask yourself if that is just a totally natural course of events, or if there isn't consistent, subtle or not so subtle, bias against those groups. How else has it come about?

 

The problem Dominic is that these programs are starting to back fire. The white males that do dominate the management of so many industries are starting to see themselves as "under siege." As a result they may become LESS likely to hire a woman or minority because they feel they need to help a white male brother before they all go extinct from the work force.

 

I've sat in dozens of meetings where it was an all white male group, you should hear the jokes made about "affirmative action" programs. These are conversations never heard by people outside of this group, but believe me, it goes on and it's what the "boys" really think.

 

The other phenomenon I've noticed is that as more and more white males get forced out of management positions, they start their own companies. These new companies often allow them to make more money than they did when they where employed with some one else. As a result many white males have simply sailed on to greater profits, leaving the other groups in their dust once again.

 

I half expect the government of Canada to one day pass a law that taxes all white males at a higher rate or sets a cap on the amount of money they can make in a new business venture.

 

Again, amongst this entrepreneurial class of white males there is a definite camaraderie and a "let's stick together" mentality that has been fueled by "affirmative action" and "quota laws."

 

R,

[Dominic Case]

"affirmative action" and "quota laws."

Again, I would distinguish between these two phrases. Look again (again) at the program that started this thread. http://www.divafilms.co.uk/

 

It provides funded short term attachments. The "training allowance" comes from UK Lottery money (that wonderful treasure chest that has allowed the UK government to keep the classroom quiet for years by handing out lollies to disruptive kids! That's a different debate though.).

 

So it isn't a case of a white male not getting a job because a quota has got in the way. It's a case of an extra employee at no cost to the organisation, and someone (invariably trained and qualified to do the job) getting their break.

 

I'm well aware of those "boys' club" meetings. I've sat in those too. I don't usually stay silent.

 

As for as your theory that white males are starting their own businesses and making more money than before: people have always done that, why shouldn't they? And if they are doing it from a base of some management or industry experience, then why shouldn't minority groups have a chance at that same management or industry experience? If the white boys are leaving spaces behind them, then with luck they could find the minority groups competing with them on their own terms sooner than they think.

[Guest]

As for as your theory that white males are starting their own businesses and making more money than before: people have always done that, why shouldn't they? And if they are doing it from a base of some management or industry experience, then why shouldn't minority groups have a chance at that same management or industry experience? If the white boys are leaving spaces behind them, then with luck they could find the minority groups competing with them on their own terms sooner than they think.

 

This of course would be perfectly fine, at least it would be a level playing field without governments trying to interfere. If a minority owned business drives a business owned by a white guy out of business via means such as making a better product, providing better customer service, and using more effective marketing, all the more power to the minority owned business.

 

But, if the minority owned business drives the white guy out of business because the minority owned business has access to special grants not available to the white guy because of his race....well I have a serious problem with that. And Canada has TONS of grants and programs available to women and minority business owners that are not accessible by white males.

 

As a white male English speaking filmmaker in Canada I must use only free market means to get my films made and marketed. If I was a woman or spoke French the gov't has lot's of programs I could access. So in effect my tax dollars support these programs and this tax money is used to compete against me. I can post the forms on-line as proof if any one thinks I'm making this up.

 

Every thing I buy comes out of my pocket, where is my free gov't hand out from TeleFilm. Oh excuse me TeleJoke.

 

So do people like me get a bit bitter, yes, of course we do. Guess what there are hundreds of guys like me across Canada that feel the same way.

 

R,

[Adrian Sierkowski]

You know. it's 'round 1 am here in Philadelphia. I was talking to my new girlfriend 'bout this "ethnicity," class she has to take. And I was checking the boards and feeling like poop- unrelated subject- but I have to say, I'm kind of happy this conversation came up. Firstly, I have to say I am glad that it's been civil, and secondly because it's been, from what I can assume, it's been honest. And this really might not add much to the discussion, as we all have our own views and experiences- but perhaps the real answer we're looking for can only come out with more honesty and civility. We shut up here in the US about race a lot. We pretend it's invisible, and that's such bullshit in a way, because at the same time, in so many policies we're embracing it.

Ok, I think it's time I ran to Dunkin Donuts.

[Dominic Case]

I guess we are in the Off-topic forum, and still On thread so far as the subject header is concerned. I was going to move on, but I have to answer Richard's last point.

 

you said:

But, if the minority owned business drives the white guy out of business because the minority owned business has access to special grants not available to the white guy because of his race....well I have a serious problem with that.

Now, you can't have it both ways. Previously you said:

The other phenomenon I've noticed is that as more and more white males get forced out of management positions, they start their own companies. These new companies often allow them to make more money than they did when they where employed with some one else. As a result many white males have simply sailed on to greater profits, leaving the other groups in their dust once again.

This seems to scupper your own argument rather convincigly.

 

An the other point I have to make is this, again in response to what you said:

So do people like me get a bit bitter, yes, of course we do.

So in London, according to Skillset's research, 7% of the workforce in the AV industry is black or ethnic. And 35% of the population is black or ethnic. So you only have 20% the chance of getting work in the media (or AV, call it what you will) that other people have, because of the way people with your skin colour are treated. If that locked you out of the career you wanted, wouldn't you feel bitter?

[Phil Rhodes]

> bitter?

 

Yes it would.

 

The solution to that is to stop people making those sorts of bad decisions. I know that's difficult, and harder than forcing positive discrimination on everyone, but that's the correct solution.

 

As I said before, forcing people in is like giving away TVs to persons A, B and C because persons X, Y or Z might at some time have a TV stolen from them.

 

It doesn't solve the problem, two wrongs not making a right.

 

P

[Daniel Smith]

I blame labour.

[Guest]

I guess we are in the Off-topic forum, and still On thread so far as the subject header is concerned. I was going to move on, but I have to answer Richard's last point.

 

you said:

 

Now, you can't have it both ways. Previously you said:

 

This seems to scupper your own argument rather convincigly.

 

An the other point I have to make is this, again in response to what you said:

 

So in London, according to Skillset's research, 7% of the workforce in the AV industry is black or ethnic. And 35% of the population is black or ethnic. So you only have 20% the chance of getting work in the media (or AV, call it what you will) that other people have, because of the way people with your skin colour are treated. If that locked you out of the career you wanted, wouldn't you feel bitter?

 

I don't see how my two points contradict? Yes more white males must go into business for themselves as a result of affirmative action. And no it's not fair for women and minority owned businesses to receive access to gov't grants and loans that are not available to white males.

 

I don't see how I'm "having it both ways??????" Are you saying that it's only fair for white males to get their asses kicked by the gov't whether they are employed or self employed?

 

Ok as for:

 

"So in London, according to Skillset's research, 7% of the workforce in the AV industry is black or ethnic. And 35% of the population is black or ethnic. So you only have 20% the chance of getting work in the media (or AV, call it what you will) that other people have, because of the way people with your skin colour are treated. If that locked you out of the career you wanted, wouldn't you feel bitter?"

 

Blacks in the USA make up 14% of the population, but they make up a much higher percentage of players in the NBA than 14%. So are you saying that the NBA discriminates against whites? You seem to be based on your numbers argument.

 

Here are some numbers to illustrate what I am saying:

 

Last February, the NBA's black-player population was 77 percent, while the white-player population was 21 percent. Of the white players, 55 percent were American-born and 45 percent were international players.

 

http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/PIBasketb...pOfBaseball.htm

 

R,

[Max Jacoby]

Blacks in the USA make up 14% of the population, but they make up a much higher percentage of players in the NBA than 14%. So are you saying that the NBA discriminates against whites? You seem to be biased on your numbers argument.

I always knew there was a conspiracy to keep me out of the NBA! I coulda been a contender...

 

But seriously, I think Richard has a point, if you look at most industries, you'll find that hardly any of them reflect the general population in terms of percentages (be it of minorities or even genders). Only yesterday I read an interview in a magazine where it was discussed that although more women than men study in Germany, they mostly pick subjects that are not as career-oriented, because most are not aiming to become the principal earner in a couple anyway. If the couple have children, it's almost always the woman who is quite happy to only work part time or even stop working altogether to raise them. In fact women in general are not prepared to marry a man who was happy quitting his job to look after the couples kids while the woman keeps on working. So if you wanted someone to blame for this situation, you'd have to blame the men and women concerned!

 

Now to avoid any misunderstanding, it is not my intent to suggest that this situation should stay as it is. But this is merely an illustration that hundred thousands of years of evolutionary induced behavior cannot get changed by the people concerned from one day to the next. I think if you look at the recent history, you'll find that things are changing towards more equality, but they are changing slowly.

 

Luckily Luxembourg is far too small to start any of these positive discrimination, but hell yeah, I'm happy I don't have to apply for funding in the UK, where as a white male, I never would see any money. Now on the other hand if I were a black jewish lesbian... ;)

[Adrian Sierkowski]

my one boss (day job) actually is a black jewish lesbian. . .

 

IN terms of the Evolution bit, there are two major camps, one which states our behavior is hard wired and one which states that it is due to our enviorment (a guy named trigger and a guy named diamond write 'bout that a lot). Personally, I don't think it's safe to say any behavior or certain type of kin-relationship/pair-bond is hard wired, because it's not really universal. The woman with the children while the man works is a very westernized happening, but not really the case in matriarchal societies (though those are few and far between). Also, it's very important not to link behavior into evolution explicitly because it has an air of making things "natural,' e.g. the man working while woman is at home with the kids becomes "natural," if its due only to evolutionary neurobiology. What I find, in terms of male and female relationships and what happens is often a lot of pressure from families, and how their parent did it, and the like. That's just me of course, though I'd have to say, I also think a lot of our race perceptions come from that same mode.

[Michael Lehnert]

Having to deal with issues of racism, sexism, xenophobia, stereotyping, the consequences of culturally-conditioned opportunity-channelling and society-nivellation due to general perceptions of what is regarded as "race/sex/gender-adequate jobs or not" (women as politicians? Nah, that's a man's job / women as explorers - nah, only men have the stamina to sail around the planet / stay-home dads changing nappies - how affeminate and demasculine can it get?) in one of my jobs, I cannot see any point of contention to give a group of people who are commonly discriminated or regularly excluded from thinking that they can make a career in the media industry, an opportunity just to take a teaser job they are paid for because over 70% have below-poverty-line background and their parents will never be able to afford a study, and no bank will ever give them a credit. I can also guarantee you, out of, say, 10 talented positive-discrimination benefitees, only one will in a "1:100 lucky game" be able to make something out of it, whereas all the other 9 will be sunk immediately after the project.

 

Frankly, having enjoyed the presence of well-placed white males humming the "we are so discriminated today" discourse in oak-panelled boardrooms no white woman (let alone a non-WASP human) has ever seen, and the non-public discussions Richard has aluded to above that are STILL a full part of job-giving decisions, I am actually glad to see such a project Phil wonders about, to be around. The world is still so outrageously racist and sexist that this is direly needed.

 

Why? Because this is not only about creating opportunities, but also about generating role modeling. This is something so commonly overlooked, now, but it is always shocking to hear in chats, debates, interviews, research how often entire parts of society do not think or can possibly imagine to see themselves doing something in their life or pursuing certain paths of lifes. This is not only about white imperialist/colonialising patriarchy, but also about the perpetuating effects within minority communities: mothers setting out to their daughters what is "womanly" to do and not, religious leaders saying what is approved by the God(s) and what is a sinful life to pursue (a MTV clip for P Diddlydaddlydoo? Go to hell!), black communities saying to stay close to the brothas and not becoming a "white" through a job, working class people not thinking that going to a good school or even uni is something that might change their kids life for the better, "elite" classes being pressured to keep the tradition alife and not dishonour the family... it can go on and on....

 

Role models, like having a female prime minister, or CEO, or camerawoman, or grip, or truck driver allows humans to think in alternatives for their supposed tracks and have a go at it despite hereditary rules that are often based on contemporary mythmaking anyhow rather then truly historical sources (e.g. as regards women as leaders only becoming possible in our "enlightened" times... someone grab a good history book to double-check on their reading of history, please....)

 

From my view, there is no reason for the ostentatious absence of many societal groupings in the filmmaking world in respect to physical or intellectual requirements. But that was discussed in exchanges between Tom and David in the "women in filmmaking" threads enough, so there's no need to repeat that.

 

Folks, I just came back from a trip to Germany, and suddenly, the UK, Phil, looks like the most liberal place in the world. You would not believe what I had to encounter in latent and blatant racism and sexism and xenophobia there, all well hidden below the valid but thereby eroding discourses of "Leitkultur", integration, adequacy etc.

I wasn't a victim, but maybe even worse: I was a bystander suddenly under his own pressure not to give leaway to my own open ideas because it makes you wonder: when they talk like that about Muslims, "der Engländer", American imperialists, women in general, the world-dominating and soon super-rich Chinese that destroy the planet, then becoming a victim because of just one perceived categorisation out of such arry is very easy... .

I made my disliking comments in such situations as I seem required due to my personal background and my valuation of civil courage, but it's also quite obvious that if I were to publish every word I heard, not only would alot of people loose their heads, but almost certainly would I face the usual array of death-threats, hate mails and physical assaults that are common if you stand-up for universal rights in public that are on paper for hundred of years.

 

I am well aware that you must be facing a tough time in your job, Phil, but if I had the powers, I would love to give you the opportunity to make a body switch just for a brief time. I can assure you, you would not have started this threat!

 

 

 

 

By the way: how many black-skinned humans are in the running commitees and executive & promotion branches or held/hold commissioner positions in the NBA? OR how white was the NBA just 30 years ago until someone figured out that hiring supertall guys that (due to genetic backgrounds) happen to be black makes it somewhat easier to get that basketball into where it's supposed to be? And how much screentime is Women's NBA getting?

I am sure as much screentime as the multi-world-cup winning German "women soccer" team (almost zero) as opposed to the good-but-loosing German male team that is omnipresent whereever you walk in Germany...