Why is this legal?

[Michael Lehnert]

I blame labour.

 

I blame bigots.

[John Holland]

I agree with Michael , Daniel you mean "New Labour" which is just another name for the "Conservative Party" which seem more to the left than this bunch of right wing nutters that have been in power for the last 11 years . Ripped up my Labour Party membership card years ago . Just have to wait and see who our next US president will be to run this country . :(

[Joe Giambrone]

At the risk of starting some more rancor...

 

There are historical injustices here, the big elephants in the room, which people don't acknowledge, or choose to conveniently (for them) call moot.

 

It wasn't the black Africans that kidnapped the white Europeans and stole 400 years of hard labor, and the profits of that labor from them.

 

It also wasn't the women who wouldn't let the men vote for centuries, treating them as chattel, little more than property in law. Oh yes.

 

It is still legal to beat one's wife in some parts of the US, as long as the stick is no thicker than the thumb.

 

So, some puny efforts have been made to address glaring and quantifiable cases of discrimination in the media. Big deal.

 

Don't cry to me, you poor opporessed white males who still run the world (into the ground). Get some perspective.

 

(I am a white male.)

 

PS

 

When dealing with broadcast media, over PUBLIC airwaves, the government does have a legitimate interest in making sure all varieties of the population have representation. They have historically done a piss poor job of this, choosing to give away billions- to trillions - to corporate interests, without regard to the consequences for society.

 

More public control of airwaves is needed, and more public access to the tools of media. Also charge these bloated corporate behemoths a fair market price for the airwaves and mandate air time to the rest of us.

[Phil Rhodes]

> There are historical injustices here

 

I wasn't there - I didn't do it.

 

To punish people for that is to punish them on the basis of their heritage.

 

Which is exactly what racism does.

 

P

[Matthew W. Phillips]

This is ridiculous. Let's all get some perspective.

 

For whoever said that about us "white dominating males" blah blah, I have one thing to say to you that I would never say to anyone on here...you're talking like an idiot. Just be quiet and remember yourself.

 

Onward to sensibility...ANY, and I repeat ANY program that is exclusive on the basis of race or gender is discrimination. Discrimination is a cultural issue, not a moral one. Many people disagree but it's true. Natural law neither approves of nor disapproves of discrimination. Historically discrimination has been practiced for longer than it hasn't. Discrimination is not limited to white/nordic/euro races. Every type of people have practices some form of secular/tribal discrimination during their history.

 

Funny enough is that discrimination is just a negative word for discernment. However, when we "discern" we are automatically doing something good. It's all about historical culture at the time. Right now in America, it's socially acceptable to discriminate against Arabs. Just like during the Cold War, it was socially acceptable to discriminate against Soviets. Whether something is "wrong" is based on your own cultural view and historial context.

 

Just like using the "N" word in movies...is it wrong? I don't think so. If it was needed, I would put it in one of my scripts. Tarentino does it all the time and I don't find it offensive.

 

Regarding grants and special offers for "under-represented" I think it's sortof funny. Anyone who would take a hand out because of their race/gender and not because they earned it are sortof sad in my opinion. This isn't to discredit anyone, I would find it pathetic if the NBA had a white guy quota and accepted mediocre white dudes just so it's balanced. The last thing we need is more Kevin McHale's running around. :lol:

[Damien Bhatti]

> There are historical injustices here

 

I wasn't there - I didn't do it.

 

Well, the implications of history still echo down to us - so its not a question about being at that particular place and time to make a change. We can do that by grappling the effects of the cause, all those ripples from those pebbles. So in a way you can rectify injustices by trying to lessen its consequences.

 

BUT whether this rectification of by gone calamities is a right way of doing it, is an entirely different question.

[Matthew Buick]

This sort of positive discrimination is EVERYWHERE in British society, not just in filmaking, it's EVERYWHERE. Millions, perhaps Billions of pounds is spent on ethnic minority culture all the while indigenous Britons aren't allowed to express our heritage, if I went out into the street and talked about how proud I was to be truly of this land I'd be arrested and taken to court for "inciting racism", it's disgusting that in this politically correct post feminist (that's another rant) society 35,000 years of British culture, the same culture that brought so many technological advances we now take for granted has been so undermined, not by 50 years of mass immigration, but by those New Labour pricks.

 

For example, I got a car for my 17th Birthday, nothing fancy or powerful, just a nondescript x-Reg Vauxhall Corsa with a Turbo Diesel. It's in fantastic condition, only 14,000 miles, the only problem with is a big hole in the parcel shelf, so I bought a cover in the shape of a St. George cross to hide it. Three days later a busybody PCSO sticks a card under my wiper telling my to remove it within three days or face court chargeson inciting racial hatred. Naturally I removed it with haste, but I don't know how a simple shelf cover could incite hatred of minority cultures, it's bloody insane. I now have a christian fish sticker above the TD badge and some rosemary beads around the cabin mirror. If the busydody decides to have another go I'll make him rue the day the thought crossed his mind.

 

Another thing, my grandfather, a US Air Force navigator was a Sioux, I wonder if this git would mind if I make a parcel shelf cover from human scalps. :lol:

[Phil Rhodes]

I'd have fought it.

 

P

[Michael Lehnert]

Hi Matt, good to have you back here for once! :)

 

this politically correct post feminist (that's another rant) society 35,000 years of British culture ... has been so undermined,...

 

:blink:

 

What does that actually mean?!! Are there no more women in Britain? Do Women rule the World, as Channel 4 shows us every Thursday night? Will I have to move on from here..? damn, I loved it here, with my version of "Who do you think you are" going back to Paleolithic times where no Brunel has yet been around ;) , just apes (not true, I know my biology - just kiddin').

 

 

PCSO sticks a card under my wiper telling my to remove it within three days or face court chargeson inciting racial hatred.

 

PCSO?! I google'd, but only got back:

* Philippine Charity Sweepstakes Office

* Pacific Coast Society of Orthodontists

* Plumas County Sheriff's Office

 

Okay, lame joke (again).

 

On a serious note: the notification you received is completely out of order and not only transgresses the legally-allowed powers Police Community Support Officers are allowed to operate in according to the Police Reform Act 2002, the claim that the St. George's Cross would in any way incite racial hatred (unless it is depicted in context of racist statements, "Britain White Rule" slogans or BNP marketing material) is not only without foundation but grotesque.

 

I strongly suggest you go to your local Police Office and kindly ask the Duty Officer or local Constable (not sure in what kind of village/town/city/metropolis/capital you live up North so not sure what the highest rank would be) what this note means, what the point of contention to your St. George's Cross cover is, and if it is unfounded, that the PCSO is duly reprimanded for putting out notes that s/he is not allowed to do?!! Take this up, Matt!! Complaining about all sort of things but complying without an own will is one thing - but taking the matter up to the "Guvnr" is truly Victorian and rules the sea ;) .

 

Why did you go for St. George's? Bearing a proud Scottish name, I thought St Andrews would be it for you. Or as you talk about Britan above, why didn't you go for the "Union Jack"? Just a personal question...

 

Best wishes,

 

-Michael

[Daniel Sheehy]

Once you take the view that you [or your group or whatever] have been wronged and that needs to be set right before you can progress, you're doomed to failure from the start.

 

I grew up in a country where positive discrimination was institutionalised... and I can tell you that it doesn't work.

 

If you put your head down and are willing to work hard for what you want, no one can stop you. If you take the view that you are entitled to some sort of assistance simply because you are [insert favourite cause here], you don't have the right mindset to actually achieve anything, even if you are given all the help in the world!

 

While I can understand the reasoning behind these affirmative action / positive discrimination schemes.. I feel they ultimately often cause more harm and division than they're worth. Yes, some very talented people do get breaks under these systems but in the long run, I have doubts about their effectiveness.

 

If you want a scheme to help talented but underprivileged film makers, make it applicable to all talented but underprivileged film makers.. does it really matter what language they dream in or where they sleep at night?

Edited September 19, 2008 by Daniel Sheehy

[Damien Bhatti]

so I bought a cover in the shape of a St. George cross to hide it. Three days later a busybody PCSO sticks a card under my wiper telling my to remove it within three days or face court chargeson inciting racial hatred.

 

 

I just dont believe that. Its completely absurd. What do they do when the England football team are playing and everybody is flapping their flags until they are blue in the face? They must get alot of revenue from people inciting racial hatred!

[Matthew Buick]

Oh dear, my comment was more succesfull than I guessed. Now where do I start?..oh yeah, I went to a scrapyard and got myself a new parcel shelf for 50p, job sorted, no fuss any more, I hope.

 

Thanks for your concern, Michael. I couldn't be bothered to fight this guy, if I get a similar notice I'll certainly take action, but I haven't seen him for a while, so he's probably been relieved of duty.

 

 

#

I just dont believe that. Its completely absurd. What do they do when the England football team are playing and everybody is flapping their flags until they are blue in the face? They must get alot of revenue from people inciting racial hatred!

 

Ooh! It certainly did happen, though I suspect this PCSO was just bored and looking for something to do. A half-decent officer wouldn't have bothered, or as Michael says, have the duristiction to be bothered.

 

The important thing now is that my car's in great cosmetic condition, and I wasn't about to remove the whole parcel shelf, I don't want people thingking I have a dog. ;)

 

 

Onwards with the discussion!

[Michele Peterson]

It's all well and good for you guys to take that position, UNTIL, you two are told you can't have a job in the industry because you are white males.

 

So you've now had ONE experience of discrimination and it obvious how angry you feel about it. No imagine that you are a miority and this has happen more like once a month!!!!

 

If you want someone to be angry at, get angry at the white males hiring their sons & nephews all the time. You didn't get those jobs either.

 

Do you think it is better to tell people "yeah we know you're being discriminated against a lot, but we can't get rid of ALL discrimination right this minute, so we aren't going to do anything at all to help you."

 

 

You may not want to admit, it but you get more help than you will likely ever realize form the "good old boys club," so something else has to be created to help others in another way. WHITE MALES DO HAVE MANY MORE OPPORTUNITIES!!! It's more to level the playing field.

Edited September 19, 2008 by Michele Peterson

[Michael Lehnert]

Considering the fact that from all the professions in filmmaking/moviemaking/broadcasting, cinematography (DoP down to loader) has the lowest level of women working in it (just 3%!!!), plus the rather blatant sexism that oozed from some earlier threads discussing "women in film" on this normally excellent forum, your post was overdue, Michele :) . I agree with your points.

 

-Michael

[Guest]

So you've now had ONE experience of discrimination and it obvious how angry you feel about it. No imagine that you are a miority and this has happen more like once a month!!!!

 

If you want someone to be angry at, get angry at the white males hiring their sons & nephews all the time. You didn't get those jobs either.

 

Do you think it is better to tell people "yeah we know you're being discriminated against a lot, but we can't get rid of ALL discrimination right this minute, so we aren't going to do anything at all to help you."

 

 

You may not want to admit, it but you get more help than you will likely ever realize form the "good old boys club," so something else has to be created to help others in another way. WHITE MALES DO HAVE MANY MORE OPPORTUNITIES!!! It's more to level the playing field.

 

Well as far as I know I have never been a victim of reverse discrimination, I was simply pointing out that white males who favour employment "quotas" won't be too in favour of them when the very quota they supported is used to keep them out of a job. That's all.

 

Usually the whites males that support quotas are the ones that have their comfortable position and want the quotas used on the white males coming through the door AFTER them.

 

As for "WHITE MALES DO HAVE MANY MORE OPPORTUNITIES!!!" certainly that is NOT the case when white males apply for one of the many film funding grants available in Canada. I can show you the application forms....it is VERY clear on the TeleFilm forms that women and minorities go before white males, they make that very clear.

 

Even the Canadian performers union openly discriminates against white males. This is right off the ACTRA web site:

 

5. When you purchase your sixth work permit (or third, if you are a visible minority or differently abled), advise the ACTRA Membership Department that you want to become a Full ACTRA member, pay your initiation fee ($450) and annual dues ($195)

 

Visible minorities only need three credits to join ACTRA, whites need six. This is blatant discrimination on the basis of race and yet some how ACTRA gets away with this! Heck even white women are disadvantaged by this policy!!

 

How this is legal I have no idea? Clearly the Canadian constitution forbids such a discriminatory practice.

 

R,

[Michele Peterson]

Are you against welfare too? Most decent human beings help each other out, not try to keep each other down. Certain people face more discrimination in every single job they apply for, so they give them one opportunity where they don't have to face that. Come on now, it's not putting you completely out of a career. Share the wealth.

 

 

Most programs that I know of (and I participated in a training program to help people of low socio-economic status) don't FORCE anyone to hire anyone else. They offer training and pre-screen people then through their professional connection get people they trained hired. It's not affirmative action/quotas like many are trying to claim.

 

Do you turn down any job that someone you know referred you to because they did not consider enough minorities?

 

Did you ever contact the program or are you making racist accusations merely on assumptions?

 

 

For the people who say that minorities are not working hard enough if they accept help, that is BS!!! A black person has to work twice as hard, especially if coming from a poor background, than you do just to get half as far. They apply for twice as many jobs just to get fairly considered for one. If they are anywhere, they are working harder than you will ever realize. It's easy for you to deny that amount of racism and sexism that exist, but it still exists!!! You are contributing to racism by saying that people shouldn't be helping minorities. Your excuses of them not working hard enough are BS. It's no different than when people said women and blacks were incapable of things because they were female or black. Everyone who has discriminated and tried to hold someone back has created some excuse to justify it and you are doing the same!

Edited September 20, 2008 by Michele Peterson

[Michele Peterson]

Considering the fact that from all the professions in filmmaking/moviemaking/broadcasting, cinematography (DoP down to loader) has the lowest level of women working in it (just 3%!!!), plus the rather blatant sexism that oozed from some earlier threads discussing "women in film" on this normally excellent forum, your post was overdue, Michele :) . I agree with your points.

 

-Michael

 

 

Thank you for backing me up. I have come across one old thread that was completely ridiculous and proves how far there still is to go. And what stupid comments some people are willing to make in public and how few people have the balls to say something against it.

 

No one ever thought twice about me working in medicine and lifting patients carrying 150+ lbs patients (or 2 women carrying a 250lbs patient on a 65lb gurney that had to be lifted up off the ground), but I carry a 25lb camera and jaws drop. No one thinks twice about a woman carrying a sleeping child weighing 50lbs up a flight of stairs to put him to bed, but carrying a camera is questioned.

 

 

When men carry the ever-growing weight of about 40lbs for 9 months without putting it down EVER, then you can call yourself strong.

 

When men stretch their penis 10 time their normal size to pass a human being through, then you can call yourself tough.

 

Discrimination against women is just a pathetic attempt for men who feel inadequate to compensate for the inherent power women have from sex, controlling procreating/passing of genes and raising children.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Michele Peterson

[Guest]

"Are you against welfare too? Most decent human beings help each other out, not try to keep each other down. Certain people face more discrimination in every single job they apply for, so they give them one opportunity where they don't have to face that. Come on now, it's not putting you completely out of a career. Share the wealth."

 

As a matter of fact...I am against welfare. I grew up in the grinding poverty of a single parent household with two small sisters. The total amount of help we received from the government was a total of $00.00. And we survived via hard work and determination.

 

You harbour a very typical view that white males have all the wealth and all the opportunity so it needs to pried from our hand with a crow bar. That is ridiculous, no one one has ever handed me a damn thing! It's always work, work, work, that's all.

 

My mother and I are immigrants to Canada, we arrived literally with the clothes on our backs, no family or contacts of any kind to help us in any way. And again, not a penny in gov't support.

 

 

"Most programs that I know of (and I participated in a training program to help people of low socio-economic status) don't FORCE anyone to hire anyone else. They offer training and pre-screen people then through their professional connection get people they trained hired. It's not affirmative action/quotas like many are trying to claim."

 

Sure that's fine, I'm all for training programs that help financially disadvantaged people so long as race or gender is not used as a pre-screening qualification. I'm about one thing, equal chances for all people, regardless of race or gender. That's all, why is that so difficult? I've never had the benefits of any of these programs, I had to pay for my university education myself and I had to develop my own contacts in the film industry where previously I had none. I feel that I'm better able to compete in the market place because I am 100% self reliant.

 

"Do you turn down any job that someone you know referred you to because they did not consider enough minorities?"

 

Eh? Not really sure what you're talking about? No one ever hires me any way, I hire people to work for me. And guess what I don't care if the person is black, white, green, blue, or purple. I just want to know that they can do the job, that's all.

 

"Did you ever contact the program or are you making racist accusations merely on assumptions?"

 

I just posted for you from the ACTRA website in my previous post that visible minorities need three credits to join, whites need six. That is from their web site, not mine. Did you not read that?

 

 

"For the people who say that minorities are not working hard enough if they accept help, that is BS!!! A black person has to work twice as hard, especially if coming from a poor background, than you do just to get half as far. They apply for twice as many jobs just to get fairly considered for one. If they are anywhere, they are working harder than you will ever realize. It's easy for you to deny that amount of racism and sexism that exist, but it still exists!!! You are contributing to racism by saying that people shouldn't be helping minorities. Your excuses of them not working hard enough are BS. It's no different than when people said women and blacks were incapable of things because they were female or black. Everyone who has discriminated and tried to hold someone back has created some excuse to justify it and you are doing the same!"

 

I am not contributing to racism at all by saying that there should not be hiring quotas, don't be stupid. I'll repeat....I am saying there should just be "people". ACTRA should require three or six credits to join for people of all races, I don't know why you find that so hard to grasp?

 

If you keep up with this "I'm the victim" BS, you're not going to get any where, especially in the film industry. Do you think Dawn Steel woke up each day and said, "oh gee I'm a woman, I can't be a studio executive unless the government forces the studio to make a spot for me." Hell no! Read her book, They Can Kill You, But They Can't Eat You.

 

Women are breaking through more and more every day into the directors chair, none of them need a gov't support program, they have talent and drive. Which is far more effective than any gov't hiring scheme.

 

R,

[Phil Rhodes]

What's even better than all of this is the amount of maternity leave and pay women get.

 

In the most extreme examples, it's now an extremely bad idea to ever offer full time employment to women of childbearing age in the UK because you will end up funding their lives if they decide to have kids.

 

P

[Daniel Smith]

I blame bigots.

ie. Labour.

[Michele Peterson]

"You harbour a very typical view that white males have all the wealth and all the opportunity so it needs to pried from our hand with a crow bar. "

 

When I said wealth I was referring to amount of jobs available. Not currency, you are assuming that I think all whites have money, I'm white and don't, so I know.

 

 

"Sure that's fine, I'm all for training programs that help financially disadvantaged people so long as race or gender is not used as a "pre-screening qualification. "

 

That's fine in theory, but in reality there is a specific disadvantage of social status. Dening discrimination doesn't make it go away.

 

 

"I feel that I'm better able to compete in the market place because I am 100% self reliant."

 

I never had a job given to me. You're assuming I did. Every job I have gotten I earned. And I had to fight sexism to earn that, you didn't.

 

 

"Eh? Not really sure what you're talking about?"

 

No surprise there

 

 

'"Did you ever contact the program or are you making racist accusations merely on assumptions?"

 

I just posted for you from the ACTRA website in my previous post that visible minorities need three credits to join, whites need six. That is from their web site, not mine. Did you not read that?'

 

That wasn't referring to you. It isn't all about you! That was referring to the original program that started the thread.

 

 

"I am not contributing to racism at all by saying that there should not be hiring quotas".

 

Again you are making wrong assumptions because no program list here has hiring quotas. The program in question does training, seminars, then tries to find jobs for their trainees. They don't and can't force anyone to hire anyone. So your stance about not helping someone who faces racism, is suporting racism, therefore is racist. You can deny it, but that doesn't change it.

 

 

 

"If you keep up with this "I'm the victim" BS, you're not going to get any where, especially in the film industry."

 

I never aid I was the victim of anything! Where did I say I deserve anything? Where did I say anyone owes me a damn thing? Stop being stupid yourself. No one handed me anything. No one ever gave me a job. There was never a quota I came across in my life for anyone to hire me. I worked harder than you will ever know to get where I am. I lost more jobs that you will ever know without even giving anything but my name. And I HAVE gotten far in the industry. You're assuming is making an as* out of you and me! If my mentioning being woman makes you think I am playing the victim card, then so are you for mentioning being poor. I paid my own way through college, without even any financial aid. But I think financial should be available, otherwise those form impoverished backgrounds will rarely ever advance and then we go back to a social class system.

 

 

"Women are breaking through more and more every day into the directors chair, none of them need a gov't support program, they have talent and drive. Which is far more effective than any gov't hiring scheme."

 

That's the whole point and you are missing it! Creating opportunities (not quotes, which again no one is making quotas, you are assuming again) allows for people to advance and then that breakdown stereotypes. Breaking down steeotypes is what will get rid of discrimination once and for all. The government sees the need to make it feasible for more minorities who are already working toward it to make it. Otherwise look at how few are able to.

 

 

People who don't face racism, can't possibly understand it, that's why you are so pigheaded about it. Some people will give you a fair chance at a job, but someone won't. It's as hard for someone being discriminated against to get 3 as someone not to get 6. Deny it all you want, but saying just work harder, is stupid on your part. White culture has pushed minorities and kept minorities down to their low social status, so it is up to white culture to aid in getting them back up to par. Not do it for them, but AID.

 

You are all assuming that jobs are handed to the first ethnic person seen on the street with on a silver platter and they have done nothing to earn it. That isn't the case1 You guys are all doing this poor me song and dance because you can't get on these programs, and then saying people who mention the need for these programs are playing the victim. There is social injustice going on in the owrld and somehting needs to be done about it. These programs are blatantly looking for minorities that have proven they are ont he right track to getting where they are going. The racism is not so blatant, but going on jsut as much! Stop pretending it doesn't exist and let these programs be! One stil has to work to get out of the program the same success that anyone out of film school has to do to succeed. It's a another means to an end, but not a free pass to the end, stop trying to justify your racism but making it out to be quotas and what not that it isn't.

[Matthew Buick]

Ooh! Things like this make my blood boil! I do hope an end is put to this sort of politic correctness pronto!!

 

AARGH!! :angry:

[Michele Peterson]

I also work as an EMT, where it is my job to help people in need. Should I pull up in my ambulance on scene to an amputated arm and tell the guy to "just work harder and stop the bleeding yourself, look I got a paper cut earlier and I stop bleeding"? No it's not the same thing, the world is not a even playing field for all people.

[Damien Bhatti]

Ooh! Things like this make my blood boil! I do hope an end is put to this sort of politic correctness pronto!!

 

AARGH!! :angry:

 

Can someone enlighten me as to what the alternative is to "politcal correctness?" (sincerely, because I do not know)

[Matthew Buick]

Just to clarify I don't want an end to political correctness, I think it's great in moderation. I think it's just going much too far. I agree with film projects for ethnic minorities and women, but the majority can't be banned from participating (not in the directorial role obviously) but maybe as a Cinematographer, Production Designer, Supporting Cast etc. It is in my opinion very wrong to try and cure one form of discrimination with another.

 

One thing I think is gravely wrong as Richard mentioned is minority groups requiring less in the way of point to subscribe to a union. That's absolute blatant racism/sexism in my view, and it creates tension and anger. "Positive" Discrimination is one of the thing I hate most about modern culture.

 

 

Can someone enlighten me as to what the alternative is to "politcal correctness?" (sincerely, because I do not know)

 

HAHA! Good 'un. I'd love to know! :lol: