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Filming in complete darkness


Rodrigo Prieto

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I have not posted in some time, but I am now starting prep on a film in Spain, and an interesting challenge has come up in the script (as always). The scene happens in complete darkness, and the characters can't see what the others are doing, but, of course, we want the audience to "see" the action. Talking to the director, he wants the actors to really be in total darkness so that in fact they can't see each other. Hmmmm.... I once tested a night vision device at Panavision that is placed in front (or behind?) of the lens, which was used in the remake of Roller Ball. It essentially means shooting a low-rez night vision video signal with a film camera. I was wondering if anyone knows of any new developments in this field. Is there a high end HD camera capable of shooting with IR lighting, for example? Ideally the images look like a very high quality Night Vision, which we would colorize a bit in post to make the image less monochromatic. We don't want a military style image, but rather a stylized, high quality version of it, where you can distinguish some color, but the eyes still have the weird look of Night Vision. Am I making sense? Any ideas?

Rodrigo Prieto.

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Rodrigo, you should talk to Francis Kenny, ASC. He has been checking out the new NHK "Super Harp Camera" which shoots in very, very low light. Just like what you are asking for. He told me he was going to get a demo at NAB this week and investigate the camera. He's a very nice guy and I'm sure he'll help you.

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Rodrigo, you should talk to Francis Kenny, ASC. He has been checking out the new NHK "Super Harp Camera" which shoots in very, very low light. Just like what you are asking for. He told me he was going to get a demo at NAB this week and investigate the camera. He's a very nice guy and I'm sure he'll help you.

Thanks Tom! I will contact Francis. Anyone else heard of this "Super Harp"?

Rodrigo.

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Hey Rodrigo, have you thought about contacting any of the camera manufacturers and seeing if they could remove the IR filtration from one of their cameras? I know people have done it with DSLR's and I'm wondering if you could get Sony, Thomson, or Arri to help you out. It would probably take a fair amount of testing, but I'm sure you could figure out which camera has the greatest sensitivity to IR, whether a CMOS or CCD camera would be more effective.

 

You would then have to find IR lighting units, I know you could get special IR Lite Panel Minis, not sure what else would be out there. Here are some links discussing the conversion of digital still cameras for infrared shooting, see if they're useful for you:

 

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ed%20dslr.shtml

http://www.maxmax.com/aXNiteFilters.htm

 

Best of luck!

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One problem with truly shooting in pitch darkness is that the crew and cast obviously can't see very well -- I was amazed to read that they did a big motorcycle stunt in "Rollerball" using the IR camera in complete darkness. Sounded dangerous for the stunt driver...

 

I wonder if some sort of over-under two-camera rig like Clairmont has (similar to 3D rigs) could be used where an IR camera is combined with another normal camera (perhaps a gain-boosted F23) and very low (but not pitch black) lighting conditions are used, and then you'd combine elements of both images in post in percentages.

 

Obviously actors have to make-believe anyway as part of their job, so I'm not sure why it is necessary for them to truly be stumbling around in the dark bumping into things.

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It just so happens that last night's episode of CSI dealt with this same issue. A murder is committed in a restaurant that serves the food in complete darkness, and the audience has to "see" what happened during witness recounts. They came up with an interesting, but stylistic solution -- they shot the actors in black limbo but with a harsh spotlight that would fade up and down to highlight details and faces. Very artificial, but interesting.

 

post-366-1208582066.jpeg

 

You can watch the episode here.

 

A friend of mine came up with another solution -- you could have a black screen with little blinking white eyeballs, like the old cartoons... :P

 

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with, Mr. Prieto.

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I have not posted in some time, but I am now starting prep on a film in Spain, and an interesting challenge has come up in the script (as always). The scene happens in complete darkness, and the characters can't see what the others are doing, but, of course, we want the audience to "see" the action. Talking to the director, he wants the actors to really be in total darkness so that in fact they can't see each other. Hmmmm.... I once tested a night vision device at Panavision that is placed in front (or behind?) of the lens, which was used in the remake of Roller Ball. It essentially means shooting a low-rez night vision video signal with a film camera. I was wondering if anyone knows of any new developments in this field. Is there a high end HD camera capable of shooting with IR lighting, for example? Ideally the images look like a very high quality Night Vision, which we would colorize a bit in post to make the image less monochromatic. We don't want a military style image, but rather a stylized, high quality version of it, where you can distinguish some color, but the eyes still have the weird look of Night Vision. Am I making sense? Any ideas?

Rodrigo Prieto.

 

Kodak make "HIE" Infrared 35mm film for still cameras; I don't know whether there is a version that can be used in movie cameras. If you could get some 400 foot rolls of that, and you could find someone to process it, then all your problems would be solved, because the developed negative would fit seamlessly into the existing post production workflow.

 

However, I think some sort of electronic camera is likely to more practical.

 

All silicon-based electronic cameras (CCD and CMOS) are sensitive to infrared, in fact they are more sensitive to IR than they are to visible light. This is why they have to have IR filters. (Actually we are having a discussion about this over in the RED Folder).

 

So if you take just about any monochrome CCD or CMOS camera and remove the IR filter (which usually looks like a thick piece of blue-green glass mounted directly on the sensor), that will turn it into a perfectly useable IR camera. Ideally you would want one with a 1920 x 1080 monochrome sensor and a c-mount lens because its output would be close enough to 2K HD to fit into an normal digital post production chain, and you can get quite good quality lenses for that format.

 

However I don't know whether anybody makes monochrome HD cameras.

 

A good quality standard definition monochrome camera might be good enough. If you are using a traditional photochemical Post/finish, you would need to make a digital recording with minimal post-production and burn a negative with an Arrilaser or similar.

 

A cheap and easy alternative might be to capture the IR scenes using the "Nightshot Plus" feature of some Sony Digital Handycams, where you can activate an inbuilt infrared LED which allows you to take pictures of sleeping children and so on in total darkness. A small motor moves the IR filter out of the way in this mode.

 

Some of the larger Handycams have quite good Zeiss lenses and Mini DV digital recordings are excellent quality compared to the old analog Handycams. Most Digital Handycams also have FireWire connectors so you can directly import the digital recordings into a computer as a high quality AVI file, which you should be able to get burned to film or inserted into a DI workflow.

 

An alternative might be to play back the AVI files on an LCD computer monitor (so there will be no strobing issues) and shoot the screen with the film camera.

 

It won't be as good as an Arrilaser burn but it might be good enough, depending on what the director wants to portray, and how much he wants to spend. It's a good trick on a limited budget to portray scenes like this as being what somebody is seeing on a monitor screen, as it can disguise a lot of deficiencies!

Edited by Keith Walters
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Rodrigo,

 

Hi. I saw this nature doc shot with zero lights and no moonlight and it looked beautiful and unlike any infrared camera i'm used to seeing. here's a link with some info. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/leopards/camera.html the article doesn't give any specifics about which camera they actually used for this but perhaps you could contact the producers for that info..

 

good luck

 

f

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A Sony F35 or F23 with an infrared LED ring light on the lens?

 

If you need more power than that you can always filter a movie light for infrared or you might find the lights built for the security market useful. Supercircuits.com sell some of these. Here is one of their flood lights:

http://www.supercircuits.com/index.asp?Pag...amp;ProdID=3903

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Thanks for all these ideas. I did see the Roller Ball scene that David mentioned when I was researching for Babel. I will test that device ("image intensifier") from Panavision, but I have a feeling it may be to "military" for our purpose. This is a scene where the characters and they are in complete darkness, and the director wants the actors to really feel the anxiety of not seeing anything (if possible). No stunt or danger involved in this case, so I am quite intrigued by the idea and the challenge. Does anyone know if the IR filter is removable on the F-23, the Viper, the Genesis or the D-20? Or any other high end Hi-Def camera? I want an image of the highest possible quality, that can be somewhat colorized in Post, but has the odd eyes of night vision, and is slightly reminiscent of the military and security cameras (but more "realistic"). Andreas, I have not seen The Time of the Wolf, but I also played with the idea of shooting blackness, but the director does want to see the action, that becomes quite emotional. Perhaps I will shoot some of it with regular film, as at one point a character lights a cigarette for a moment, but has to turn it off. It may help remind the audience that indeed they are in a completely black environment. The trick is how to do the transition...

Anyway, all the ideas are welcome at this stage. Thanks!

Rodrigo.

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If the location is supposed to have windows, the Actors could be silhouettes, with little light outside the windows in the background. Add a little bit of backlight on the actors to show separation to audience.

But if we have to see the actors faces, this advice is pointless.

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If it is capable, I'm sure panavision would be happy to remove the IR filter from a genesis for you.

 

Here is one of many articles on the net about modifying DSLRs for IR photography. The mod is simply removing the IR filter and replacing it with clear glass of the same thickness.

 

Have you given kodak or fuji a call about this? I know at least Kodak has made IR film in the past and they might do it again on a special order basis.

Edited by Chris Keth
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Rodrigo, have a look at The time of the wolf, Your idea of a lighter is close to how Haneke/Jurges did it.

They had the actors to put fire to some hay in a barn and then in a field. Eventually if I remember correct

the whole barn took fire. It was very beautiful and autentic. The scene might give you some new ideas.

 

good luck with your new film, really looking forward to see it.

Andreas

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I have not posted in some time, but I am now starting prep on a film in Spain, and an interesting challenge has come up in the script (as always). The scene happens in complete darkness, and the characters can't see what the others are doing, but, of course, we want the audience to "see" the action. Talking to the director, he wants the actors to really be in total darkness so that in fact they can't see each other. Hmmmm.... I once tested a night vision device at Panavision that is placed in front (or behind?) of the lens, which was used in the remake of Roller Ball. It essentially means shooting a low-rez night vision video signal with a film camera. I was wondering if anyone knows of any new developments in this field. Is there a high end HD camera capable of shooting with IR lighting, for example? Ideally the images look like a very high quality Night Vision, which we would colorize a bit in post to make the image less monochromatic. We don't want a military style image, but rather a stylized, high quality version of it, where you can distinguish some color, but the eyes still have the weird look of Night Vision. Am I making sense? Any ideas?

Rodrigo Prieto.

 

FLIR is now making a 640x480 infrared camera that we've been using successfully for a few months now.

 

http://www.goinfrared.com/cameras/P-Series/thermacam-p640

 

It's not cheap by any stretch of the imagination, and you may run into some export control issues, but it will meet the level 1 requirement of being able to shoot in total darkness.

 

Mind you, my real advice would be for the director to trust the actors to act and shoot the thing with lights on (for safety reasons if nothing else), but that's not your job...

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Great ideas, thanks! I will shoot tests next week, and hopefully will have several options to try out. I am looking for black and white infrared stock here in Madrid, as well as the mini infrared litepanels. Still waiting to hear if they are available over here. I am also waiting to hear if there is any HD camera to remove the IR filter for the test (be it Genesis, F23, Viper... still looking). Also working on getting over here the image intensifier from Panavision in London. I am also contacting the representative of FLIR Systems here in Madrid to ask about the P640 camera. Many interesting options... I will let you all know the result of the tests (if I can get any of these cameras or devices by next week!).

But one question: Anyone have an idea on how to measure exposure with Infrared light (the mini infrared litepanel). I imagine that on HD I can use the waveform monitor, but on film???

This is what I love of our job... always something new to learn...

Rodrigo.

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But one question: Anyone have an idea on how to measure exposure with Infrared light (the mini infrared litepanel). I imagine that on HD I can use the waveform monitor, but on film???

This is what I love of our job... always something new to learn...

Rodrigo.

 

I guess you could measure exposure by using tungsten lighting and filtering the lights. First taking a reading of the set-up without filtration, then doing some bracketed exposures on the infrared stock with the filters on the lights, based on these results you can decide on a compensation factor.

This might be more trouble than it's worth though, because I don't know of any source of infrared lighting gels.

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But one question: Anyone have an idea on how to measure exposure with Infrared light (the mini infrared litepanel). I imagine that on HD I can use the waveform monitor, but on film???

 

 

And how much IR light do you need for a high f-stop, so that you have enough depth of field to hold the whole scene, since you can't pull focus in the dark? :blink:

 

I'm assuming the shots will be locked off with film also, since you can't see to operate -- unless you use some kind of IR videotap.

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But one question: Anyone have an idea on how to measure exposure with Infrared light (the mini infrared litepanel). I imagine that on HD I can use the waveform monitor, but on film???

 

Rodrigo.

 

Are you using KODAK EKTACHROME Infrared EIR Film? Assuming so, this is what I would do. Feel free to correct me if I am making no sense.

Note: This may be next to worthless info, because you are shooting in complete darkness, but it is a start.

 

 

See next post, below

 

But if you can do tests in complete darkness with the infrared LED panel using the above chart for exposure index, shoot properly filtered test stills at 1/48th of a second (if you intend to shoot at 24fps of course) in complete darkness until you find something you can work with. The fact that the above chart is for daylight or tungsten based lighiting versus no light at all is the catch, but at least it gives you something to work with. You would have do a lot of tests, of course, but at least you would find what you are up against.

 

That or when you do your (320 ASA rated?) HD camera/ infrared LED panel/ waveform monitor test, transpose that exposure/ fps setting to the properly filtered film camera test compensating for the type of processing (2/3 of a stop for E-6 process) and print, if it remains fairly consistent with your HD test results, you should have your exposure settings, unless I am way off the chart here.

 

Since there is no info I can find abou this, testing it would be the only way to figure it out. To quote David Mullen:

"Test, test, test."

Edited by Saul Rodgar
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