Bad cinematography (to you) that everybody else seems to think is great!

Mike Washlesky · May 14, 2008

It really is just a matter of opinion.

I thought the entire movie was downright absurd and laughable. I have a lot of respect for Viggo for the bathroom scene but when they cut to his arm blocking the swing or when Viggo stabs him in the eye I was laughing out loud. A History of Violence also pushed it. The "action" scene where Viggo takes out the bad guys was also laughable. But EP just took it to the extreme.

Not that I have a problem with what happened in the movie... just the way it was shot/cut together.

Of course its a matter of personal taste for everyone. I too didnt like History of Violence. I cant put my finger on why. It wasnt the cinematography for sure, as thats obviously the first thing that I critique. The opening shot I love, but it felt flat emotionally like most other Croneneberg films. The characters always feel so distant and removed from the events around them. I liked Eastern Promises and never noticed the cinematography. Which generally means I didnt find anything annoying or too pretentious, but also that it wasnt really noticed. It was subtle, which for me allows me to focus on character and less on visual style.

The last shot in Eastern Promises I did like however and is what I remember from the film.

K Borowski · May 14, 2008

I think I said it pretty simply, his stuff does not move me like it does others. It might move others. That is great. I like emotion. Adam's landscapes had little of that for me and his candids of people are nothing special. Give me some of the great 'people' picture takers from Life magazine and I'll show you great photographers and great photographs in my book. People like Eisenstaedt blow away Adams in my book with more texture and contrast put to still life than Adams could do with ten mountains.

OK, so you don't like him personally. Can you really say however that you don't think his work is anything special? I doubt anyone on this forum could take pictures of the same calibre he did and then print them to the same level of craftsmanship. I think you're saying it too simply. I don't agree that there is no such thing as a "wrong" opinion. Certain people's mindsets about certain things can deviate so far from the norm (including some of my own) that they can be disregarded. There has to be some mainstream artistic criteria for deciding what gets displayed, exhibited, distributed, or else anything can get a 1000 print theatrical run, anything can get thrown up on the wall at The Hermitage.

I agree his candids are nothing special. They had them on display at the George Eastman House, but over in a corner, away from the main exhibit. Have you seen any of Adam's actual prints, or only reproductions in a magazine? I assure you that there is a huge difference. His photograph of President Carter and his wife I thought was quite nice though.

I think it comes across the wrong way to say that there's no such thing as great art except to the individual. You can still see greatness in someone's work even if you don't personally like that person's work, or at least should. I don't particularly care for the work of Robert Altman, but I can still say he is a skilled filmmaker. I don't like "Collateral" but I can still say that it was innovative.

I don't think anyone has mastered the craft of photography to the same extent as Adams. I mean, the man singlehandedly invented the zone system, drew up archival processing procedures, and spearheaded an effort that gained photography more widespread acceptance as fine art.

Edited May 14, 2008 by Karl Borowski

Daniel Smith · May 14, 2008

I know I'm going to get hacked to pieces for this but... I've often found Conrad Halls work to be over rated. Not bad, just over rated.

He's often said to be the greatest, but I prefer Deakins and some others.

It's down to my taste, but I find Conrads work to be a little too natural and sometimes cliché.

But, it's just my taste. I'm not trying to pose any facts here.

I think sometimes when one person says he's the greatest, everyone just jumps on the bandwagon and agrees. If anyone asked me who's the greatest DOP, I'd have to say either Hall or Greg Tolland, but only because that's what I've been taught. Not necessarily my personal favourite. It?s probably the same with a lot of other people aswell.

I?m sure in a few years time I?ll begin to recognise more why he is so great, but right now I?ll admit I can?t.

But hold the guns, I'm just expressing opinion.

K Borowski · May 15, 2008

I know I'm going to get hacked to pieces for this but... I've often found Conrad Halls work to be over rated. Not bad, just over rated.

He's often said to be the greatest, but I prefer Deakins and some others.

It's down to my taste, but I find Conrads work to be a little too natural and sometimes cliché.

But, it's just my taste. I'm not trying to pose any facts here.

I think sometimes when one person says he's the greatest, everyone just jumps on the bandwagon and agrees. If anyone asked me who's the greatest DOP, I'd have to say either Hall or Greg Tolland, but only because that's what I've been taught. Not necessarily my personal favourite. It’s probably the same with a lot of other people aswell.

I’m sure in a few years time I’ll begin to recognise more why he is so great, but right now I’ll admit I can’t.

But hold the guns, I'm just expressing opinion.

Daniel, there's nothing wrong with saying someone like Hall is overrated, even Toland, or Eisenstein. But do you think that because you don't like them that they aren't great to you and you can't say that someone has definite greatness because it's all subjective?

I'm certain you can agree that these cinematographers have a knack for what they do. I ran into a guy the other day that said Billy Joel was an overrated musician because his lyrics were munane. Yet Joel has sung about serious subjects ranging from a Russian circus clown to a Bethlehem Steel worker striking to a soldier in Vietnam to a deep sea fisherman fishing a sea with an increasingly shrinking number of fish, trapped because he knows no other way of making a living. Sure those songs don't get any air time at all, but that isn't Billy Joel's fault that his fun songs get played over his serious ones.

If you want to make a sweeping condemnation of someone, I feel you had better back it up with some facts, not just with a brief example from a song or a movie or a photograph.

I'm trying to say that there is a difference between not liking someone personally and still understanding why they are admired and saying that "I don't think so and so is any good and you can't disprove me because all art is subjective." Sure, there is a certain degree of subjectivity, but there are certain criteria to what makes someone good at what they do, even in art. You can be a bad photographer or a bad cinematographer or a bad musician, so why can't there be the opposite, GOOD photographers, musicians, cinematographers? It has to go both ways.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Karl Borowski

Jonathan Bowerbank · May 15, 2008

Has anybody seen those "Brand Power" commercials? The UGLIEST commercials I've ever seen! I even wrote them the other day and volunteered my services, ha ha! Well, they said they'd hold onto my resume, he he.

Walter Graff · May 15, 2008

"OK, so you don't like him personally."

Didn't say that. I never knew the man so can't say anything about him. I said I don't think his work is all that great.

"Can you really say however that you don't think his work is anything special?"

Just did.

" I don't agree that there is no such thing as a "wrong" opinion."

Fair, but that is your opinion so it is not wrong.

"Have you seen any of Adam's actual prints, or only reproductions in a magazine?"

I've seen real prints on display.

"You can still see greatness in someone's work even if you don't personally like that person's work"

That's a conundrum. :)

"I don't think anyone has mastered the craft of photography to the same extent as Adams. I mean, the man single-handedly invented the zone system, drew up archival processing procedures, and spearheaded an effort that gained photography more widespread acceptance as fine art."

Adams is known for his technical abilities and firsts in printing. Great. As an artist, he doesn't move me. He doesn't have to. Art is subjective, and means something different to every single person on earth. None is wrong or right. It's nice to know I have choice when I go to the supermarket for ice cream cause I do not like coffee flavor. Many around the world can't function without it. They are not wrong, just have a different taste. I don't hate them personally, or hate that they drink coffee. And that doesn't change my feelings about coffee. I don't like it. I can't stand opera and free form jazz either.

Just did a Google search for "ansel adams overrated" and got 5000 hits. I'm not alone it seems.