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Guest Glen Alexander

Vistavision workflow?

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Hi, a couple of additions to the discussion...

 

The theatre at Paramount where I used to view VV prints was the GARY COOPER THEATER. It had a single Century projector, about 4 moth-eaten seats, an old standard lamp and smelled like a pre-war European train. However the screen image was steady enough.

 

Technicolor did an optical 70MM blow up from my VV neg, no intermediates. They similarly could do a direct reduction to 1.85:1 4 perf 35. Intermediates would be just as easy.

 

However the world turns and maybe the gear is now full of rust or cobwebs. Or perhaps there is no one there who knows how to operate it. I sure hope that the Technicolor management has changed...

 

Regards

 

Bruce

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...

The VistaVision format is the same size as the 35mm still camera format, so most VistaVision cameras use converted Nikons or medium format lenses. ...

 

Which makes me wonder what lenses will be used with Red's upcoming Epic, which will have a 35mm SLR full size sensor.

 

I've always assumed that cine lenses could fill a 36 X 24 negative, but the fall off would be significant, so the smaller negative size uses the sweetest spot of the lens. But perhaps I'm mistaken.

Edited by Peter Moretti

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Guest Glen Alexander
Which makes me wonder what lenses will be used with Red's upcoming Epic, which will have a 35mm SLR full size sensor.

 

I've always assumed that cine lenses could fill a 36 X 24 negative, but the fall off would be significant, so the smaller negative size uses the sweetest spot of the lens. But perhaps I'm mistaken.

 

 

I need to find the absolute fastest 300mm or greater lens around 1.4

 

Any ideas?

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That 8-plate KEM is a sight for sore eyes. Academy, 'Scope and VV on one bed. Wow. If I had 5000 bucks and a container, I'd buy it just to look at. It makes my Steenbeck look like a toy.

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Guest Glen Alexander
Yeah, how about a Nikon 300mm f/2 lens?

 

CameraQuest: Nikon 300mm f/2

 

Nikkor 300mm f/2

 

US$ 29.000 back then - and made on special order only. Weighs about 19 lbs. and should work nicely with the Wilcam VV cameras or the Actionflex 8-perf... :)

 

 

Yes I found about this one today but can't find anyone in Los Angeles who has one to rent, I checked Samy's, Calumet, some smaller shops.

 

Any ideas?

 

Do you have it?

 

 

What about a massive wide, super-killer fast lens? like a 1.4 20mm ?

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Guest Glen Alexander

I found a good 1.8 200mm but it is Canon... bastards

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Guest Glen Alexander

To all naysayers, I have found a V V workflow with no DI, full optical.

 

With the special film I have, it will be nothing short of spectacular. C B would be proud.

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I have recently become very interested in VistaVision and wanted to follow up on your posts to see how it has been working for you.

 

Have you found it to be worth the effort? I would love to learn about your workflow..

 

I have a lot of questions..

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The only update I have is that Paramount shut down their camera department late last year. Don't know where the VV gear went, or whether they kept the projector in that upstairs room in the Fields Bldg.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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Thanks John for that update, though most unfortunate...

 

I do have an update.. maybe its already known... But I sent an email to Fotokem.. their large format technical director Vince Roth was wonderful enough to get back to me.. here is what he sent me...

 

"We are currently only able to do 6K scans of Vistavison at this time, which could go into a DI process, and we could film out to 65mm neg if required. We can also make 70mm optical prints. We are also able to telecine the material which we would be able to do in one of our telecine bays. As a side note the aspect ratio of the vistavision frame is 1.5:1 while the 70mm 5 perf frame is 2.2:1, so you would either be losing image on top and bottom, or would have a window boxed image in the 70mm frame."

 

So it looks like Fotokem is the place for vistavision post... also Clairmont Cameras have put their Vistavision cameras out to pasture of the sales department..

 

I'll report as I learn more.

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Guest Glen Alexander
Thanks John for that update, though most unfortunate...

 

I do have an update.. maybe its already known... But I sent an email to Fotokem.. their large format technical director Vince Roth was wonderful enough to get back to me.. here is what he sent me...

 

"We are currently only able to do 6K scans of Vistavison at this time, which could go into a DI process, and we could film out to 65mm neg if required. We can also make 70mm optical prints. We are also able to telecine the material which we would be able to do in one of our telecine bays. As a side note the aspect ratio of the vistavision frame is 1.5:1 while the 70mm 5 perf frame is 2.2:1, so you would either be losing image on top and bottom, or would have a window boxed image in the 70mm frame."

 

So it looks like Fotokem is the place for vistavision post... also Clairmont Cameras have put their Vistavision cameras out to pasture of the sales department..

 

I'll report as I learn more.

 

Of course I know Vince. Call the sales dept and ask for Rik, get a quote for DI scanning. The best they could do is $0.50 per frame. Which would have cost about $25,000.

 

This is not for the feint of heart.

 

You need to be a Matlab, Labview, and C/C++ guru.

I built my own hardware and wrote software to scan it myself at 78 lp/mm for about $1400USD.

 

here's what you need

Nikon scanner

Motor with an encoder

2 or 4 gang 35mm film gang

Labview

Nikon SDK

MS compiler

 

Write code that interfaces to scanner, calibrates, scans image. It will take about 3 weeks at 24x7 to scan 50,000 frames of VV with quality control.

 

For processing full 16-bit uncompressed images, color correction, image stabilization, etc.

 

Matlab

 

When the cash flow is more positive, I intend to buy two or three VV cameras and I'll modify them for a Leica mount for my next film, a feature.

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You posted:

 

To all naysayers, I have found a V V workflow with no DI, full optical.

 

And now you post:

 

I built my own hardware and wrote software to scan it myself at 78 lp/mm for about $1400USD.

 

Write code that interfaces to scanner, calibrates, scans image. It will take about 3 weeks at 24x7 to scan 50,000 frames of VV with quality control.

 

So what happened? Have you become one of the naysayers? Why the change of heart regarding digital post?

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Of course I know Vince. Call the sales dept and ask for Rik, get a quote for DI scanning. The best they could do is $0.50 per frame. Which would have cost about $25,000.

 

This is not for the feint of heart.

 

You need to be a Matlab, Labview, and C/C++ guru.

I built my own hardware and wrote software to scan it myself at 78 lp/mm for about $1400USD.

 

here's what you need

Nikon scanner

Motor with an encoder

2 or 4 gang 35mm film gang

Labview

Nikon SDK

MS compiler

 

Write code that interfaces to scanner, calibrates, scans image. It will take about 3 weeks at 24x7 to scan 50,000 frames of VV with quality control.

 

For processing full 16-bit uncompressed images, color correction, image stabilization, etc.

 

Matlab

 

When the cash flow is more positive, I intend to buy two or three VV cameras and I'll modify them for a Leica mount for my next film, a feature.

 

Have you built this unit? What is your VV resolution Height and Width? What is your scan time per frame? DIYers are always interested to hear about other's achievements.

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Guest Glen Alexander
Have you built this unit? What is your VV resolution Height and Width? What is your scan time per frame? DIYers are always interested to hear about other's achievements.

 

Yes, I built it.

 

Resolution is 78 lp/mm,

 

Full VV frame size is 24mm x 38mm scanned at 4000 dpi, 16-bit linear per color. I could do normal scan at 20 sec per frame, a calibration frame is 45 sec per frame.

 

Calibration did a full reset and quality check on gain, focus, etc. or when it detected a scene change.

 

For DIYers, don't let any professional tell you it can't be done. I got sick and tired of hearing that BS. Anything is possible, you must have an iron will never give, keep going. A positive act of will can accomplish anything.

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Guest Glen Alexander
You posted:

 

And now you post:

 

So what happened? Have you become one of the naysayers? Why the change of heart regarding digital post?

 

It's the damn commercialization of the industry towards cheap production values. I'm 'too poor to buy a VV projector and ship one to the festivals. If I had Indian financing like Spielberg, I would. There is nothing like seeing or realky experiencing VV projected.

 

I will put some of my images up against any professional cinematographer here or anywhere.

 

People have asked me for prints to put on their wall next to images of Ansel Adams, my images are overwhelming, powerful emotional frames.

 

I have and prefer that people who watch my filn are emotionally movedi rather than some big name like my lighting. My work is art n

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It's the damn commercialization of the industry towards cheap production values. I'm 'too poor to buy a VV projector and ship one to the festivals. If I had Indian financing like Spielberg, I would. There is nothing like seeing or realky experiencing VV projected.

 

I will put some of my images up against any professional cinematographer here or anywhere.

 

People have asked me for prints to put on their wall next to images of Ansel Adams, my images are overwhelming, powerful emotional frames.

 

I have and prefer that people who watch my filn are emotionally movedi rather than some big name like my lighting. My work is art n

 

Glen,

 

Do you think, if you tried, you could come across as a bigger horse's backside.

 

Best,

-Tim

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I think with the masive proliferation of thousands of digital 4K projectors that will be installed in many theatres there will be a real need for superior aquisition formats such as Vista Vision and 65mm film because I do not think regular 35mm film will provide enough resolution to be able to hold up to 4K digital projection although regular 35mm film would be okay for a 2K digital projector.

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I think with the masive proliferation of thousands of digital 4K projectors that will be installed in many theatres there will be a real need for superior aquisition formats such as Vista Vision and 65mm film because I do not think regular 35mm film will provide enough resolution to be able to hold up to 4K digital projection although regular 35mm film would be okay for a 2K digital projector.

 

35mm anamorphic productions always looked much more impressive when blown up and projected on 70mm, so why shouldn't they look great projected on 4k?

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Conventional 35mm film projection only resolves to the equivalent of 720p so of course blowing it up to 70mm film or even 2K digital projection will be a significant improvement. However the maximum resolution of 35mm is only about 3K so there will not be that much difference between 2K or 4K digital projection with regular 35mm film origination. Also 65mm film is a much finer grain pattern so that the resolution potential with 4K digital projection will be unmasked because fine detail will not be obscured by course grain patterns.

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I would say the resolution of 35mm negative, in my own experience, seeing/hearing and testing, is well above 3K and can benefit from up to 'round a 6K scan for a 4K downconverstion. Take that for what you will, but 35mm will still look brilliant at 4K if it's been posted properly to 4K (e.g. actually scanning @4 as opposed to just up converting a 2K)

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Also 65mm film is a much finer grain pattern so that the resolution potential with 4K digital projection will be unmasked because fine detail will not be obscured by course grain patterns.

 

The grain on modern 35mm isn't that course, even the 500T stocks aren't that bad. I'd assume for 4k projection you'd be scanning without generation drops anyway.

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Guest Glen Alexander

film stock is stock whateve the speed. VV, 65mm, at 500 have the same size grain. when you have a much bigger negative then you downsize the frame, you are oversampling the frame, ie super-resolution, especially at 16-bit linear sample

 

for my next film i'm going with either Fuji Velvia 50 or 100, since Kodak stopped Kodachrome.

 

the next step for me blu-ray codecs, most suck or don't support full 16-bits per color, the most is 10-bit log, which is an approximation. also there are good and bad players, some only support 30-35Mbs where the spec is ~ 55Mbs. So I'm going to hack my own codec and use the blu-ray as a storage container and saturate the bus.

 

 

for 4k projectors, jpeg2000 seems to be the weakest link.

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Guest Glen Alexander
Glen,

 

Do you think, if you tried, you could come across as a bigger horse's backside.

 

Best,

-Tim

 

Do you feel you could be one of the most unenlightened people to have existed?

 

I back up what I say. Go back to your mediocre, average world and leave the artists and pioneers alone.

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