ricardo de gracia Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 please, help me to choose between this two cameras I am interested in buying one of them social documentary proposes * low light situations * hard contrast lighting exterior-interior * quickness and versatility & workflow... * signal quality: DVCPro50HD versus XDCamHD THANKS IN ADVANCE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted July 7, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 7, 2008 You can see a comparison of the EX1 to the HVX200 here: http://www.pairofhands.net/Ex1%20vs%20HVX%20Shootout.html The EX1 has 1/2" sensors that are 1920 x 1080 pixels, while the HVX has 1/3" sensors that are 960 x 540 pixels. I doubt that the HVX201 updated the sensor but I could be wrong. Was there even an EX2 yet, let alone an EX3? You're not supposed to cross-post the same question to multiple forums here on this site... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Belanger Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 please, help me to choose between this two cameras I am interested in buying one of them social documentary proposes * low light situations * hard contrast lighting exterior-interior * quickness and versatility & workflow... * signal quality: DVCPro50HD versus XDCamHD THANKS IN ADVANCE I've shot with both the HVX-200 and the Sony EX-1. My preference is the EX series. Better lens, manual controls of focus, iris, and zoom. The XDCAM codec in the EX1 seems to hold up better than the DVC Pro HD in the 200 even though it uses 1/3rd the data rate. I think it's because the EX1 has true 1920x1080 resolution to work with while the 200 pixel shifts. As for the new cameras in the lines, the 201 does use 1/3" sensors. Not sure if they've increased the resolution or not, but the 1/2" chips in the EX are superior as far as bokeh, etc. The EX3 is the same sensor block as the EX1, with a removable lens, timecode inputs, a few more connections, and a slightly larger body. It also has a viewfinder eyepiece over the LCD screen. For my money the EX1 is the better deal once you add a shoulder rest, viewfinder adaptor, etc. Plus it breaks down smaller for Steadi-cam work, etc. (David - don't know what happended to the EX2. It's apparently still stuck on someone's design desk over at Sony) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Belanger Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 A quick question for David or anyone else who cares to wade in. I've often wondered if we should be posting EX1 related items in the Sony or Sony (Prosumer) boards. I've tended to think the prosumer section even though the camera is badged as a CineAlta, mainly out of defference to the high-end camera users here, but many of the menu settings, etc are very similar to the Sony F series cameras. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Santucci Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 The EX series is almost double the price of the HVX200. I'm not sure why these are even being compared. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Belanger Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 The EX series is almost double the price of the HVX200. I'm not sure why these are even being compared. . Not quite. $6500 vs $5200 based on B&H list prices. Both come with a single memory card of vaguely similar capacities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted July 9, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 9, 2008 MY vote is for the EX, but that's just because it fits the work envoirment i'm encountering now (longer run time eng stuff that still needs HD). And IIRC, it meets the HD broadcast specs for most stations (where as the HVX can only be a certain % of footage on discovery channel). Don't get my wrong, I like the HVX and all, but the EX1 is a newer, more robust camera, and from the folks which bring us the higher end stuff . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Brickley Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 * signal quality: DVCPro50HD versus XDCamHD This may be just a typo, but I'm almost certain the PMW EX3 is an XDCam EX camera, not an XDCam HD camera, hence the EX3 designation. Sorry to nitpick. I've done some tests with the EX1, and it is a fantastic camera. Based on what I've seen written on the EX3 and my experience with the EX1, you would be getting a fine camera going with the Sony. In response to David: there is an EX3, however Sony appears to have skipped the EX2 for reasons that I do not understand. In response to Michael (and in general): I too have wondered where the PMW EX cameras fall in Sony / Sony (Prosumer) boards. I've always searched for information on the PMW EX cameras in prosumer first, then followed up on the Sony board looking for "stray posts." Is there someone who could establish a standard for the board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted July 17, 2008 Premium Member Share Posted July 17, 2008 From what I know, the EXs are recording a similar coded, as an HD signal, as the XDCam HDs, though not to the XDCam disks FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Atala Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 How's the motion blur on the EX cameras? One thing the HVX 200 got right was the film like movement on panning and moving subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobias Johansson Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 You can see a comparison of the EX1 to the HVX200 here:http://www.pairofhands.net/Ex1%20vs%20HVX%20Shootout.html The EX1 has 1/2" sensors that are 1920 x 1080 pixels, while the HVX has 1/3" sensors that are 960 x 540 pixels. I doubt that the HVX201 updated the sensor but I could be wrong. Was there even an EX2 yet, let alone an EX3? You're not supposed to cross-post the same question to multiple forums here on this site... Is that test really accurate? It seem at the test frame, the panasonic has the wrong settings for the picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Williams Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Show me a prosumer camera than produces more filmic images than the HVX and i'll buy you a drink. The EX is sharp as hell, but does not hold a candle to HVXs filmic quality. You'd have to see them side by side, and use both, as I have. The EX seems to scream "Use me for reality TV and interviews!" whereas the HVX is better for narrative work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Williams Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 And the EX used a LONG GOP codec, which is a pain in the ass to edit/transcode, ect. You'll see a greater loss of quality from generation to generation. It's highly highly compressed. And since the codec thrives off redundant information, if you pan the camera too quickly or photograph things like fluttering leaves or waves, you'll see artifacts, as the codec cannot handle all of the random information. I Frame codecs are generally superior. But the EX1 is, as ive said, veryy sharp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted February 4, 2009 Premium Member Share Posted February 4, 2009 Having done a doco on the EX1 I can say I've never seen the codec fail or fall apart regardless of how complicated the scene has become. That's just me, of course. I personally find the HVX problematic as it bakes in it's look, whereas the EX1 renders me a more neutral image which can be corrected in post to taste. Again, that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian moon Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 hi im new here. i was wondering if someone could explain me something i read in other forum ( i think) . it said that the sone xdcam ex1 have almost 14 sec delay when you tryied to play a clip in the cam and another 14 sec to put it con the rec mode. is it tru?? thank anyone who can help me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Williams Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Any camera can 'bake in' a look if you want it to. I shoot nuetral WB and CineD for a more linear flat gamma, for more midtone range I believe the EX series would suit your low light needs seeing that their chips are larger. But you get jello vision (rolling shutter) and a video look built in. Perhaps more suited for as documentary, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Williams Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 the EX1 is a newer, more robust camera, and from the folks which bring us the higher end stuff . What does that even mean? Do you not consider the Varicam high end then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Michael Nash Posted March 18, 2009 Premium Member Share Posted March 18, 2009 Show me a prosumer camera than produces more filmic images than the HVX and i'll buy you a drink. The EX is sharp as hell, but does not hold a candle to HVXs filmic quality. You'd have to see them side by side, and use both, as I have. The EX seems to scream "Use me for reality TV and interviews!" whereas the HVX is better for narrative work. That seems like a pretty broad statement. Since you've used both cameras, you know that the Sony will allow you to adjust gamma, black stretch, color matrix, detail and so forth to create just the kind of image you want. Sony's preset numbers always have been biased toward a punchy "video" look, but that doesn't mean that that's the only look the camera is capable of delivering. I like the HVX quite a bit (and I generally prefer Panasonic's "look"), but I've been pleasantly surprised by the quality of the images you can get out of the Sony AFTER you take the time to set up the camera properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Adrian Sierkowski Posted March 18, 2009 Premium Member Share Posted March 18, 2009 Wow, I kinda forgot about this thread, But yes, I do consider the varicam high-end, but I was referring moreso to Sony's HDCam series - for the record. The more I am working with the Sony the more I like it over the HXV, again just me. I do need to work on the picture profiles more... though what I'd love to do would be take it to a proper color-correction suite and see what I can do with just my "goto" picture profile on both the HVX and the EX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Williams Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 One of the blokes at Abelcine banged one together. Never tried them, I have an EX3 and matrix settings don't transfer well. The EX series is so flexible for it's price range. Complaining about not liking the default settings is just bizarre. HVX Matches for EX1 PP1: Cine V Matrix – - Select: High Sat - Level 0 - Phase +2 - R-G -11 - R-B -23 - G-R +38 - G-B 0 - B-R +17 - B-G -23 Detail – - Level –30 (subjective) - Frequency 15 Gamma – - Level -1 - Select: Cine 1 Black – -2 Black Gamma - -99 PP2: Cine D Matrix – - Select: High Sat - Level 0 - Phase +6 - R-G +22 - R-B -36 - G-R +19 - G-B 0 - B-R +14 - B-G -16 Detail – - Level –30 (subjective) - Frequency 15 Gamma – - Level -1 - Select: Cine 1 Black – -2 Black Gamma - -96 PP3: HD NORM Matrix – - Select: Standard - Level -5 - Phase +1 - R-G +8 - R-B -30 - G-R +15 - G-B -24 - B-R 0 - B-G +10 Detail – - Level –30 (subjective) - Frequency 15 Gamma – - Level +11 - Select: STD4 Black – -1 Black Gamma - -52 PP4: FLUO Matrix – - Select: FL Light - Level -8 - Phase -5 - R-G -64 - R-B -24 - G-R +64 - G-B -18 - B-R +24 - B-G -23 Detail – - Level –30 (subjective) - Frequency 15 Gamma – - Level +11 - Select: STD4 Black – -1 Black Gamma - -52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Koolhaas Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 One of the blokes at Abelcine banged one together. Never tried them, I have an EX3 and matrix settings don't transfer well. The EX series is so flexible for it's price range. Complaining about not liking the default settings is just bizarre. HVX Matches for EX1 PP1: Cine V Matrix – - Select: High Sat - Level 0 - Phase +2 - R-G -11 - R-B -23 - G-R +38 - G-B 0 - B-R +17 - B-G -23 Detail – - Level –30 (subjective) - Frequency 15 Gamma – - Level -1 - Select: Cine 1 Black – -2 Black Gamma - -99 PP2: Cine D Matrix – - Select: High Sat - Level 0 - Phase +6 - R-G +22 - R-B -36 - G-R +19 - G-B 0 - B-R +14 - B-G -16 Detail – - Level –30 (subjective) - Frequency 15 Gamma – - Level -1 - Select: Cine 1 Black – -2 Black Gamma - -96 PP3: HD NORM Matrix – - Select: Standard - Level -5 - Phase +1 - R-G +8 - R-B -30 - G-R +15 - G-B -24 - B-R 0 - B-G +10 Detail – - Level –30 (subjective) - Frequency 15 Gamma – - Level +11 - Select: STD4 Black – -1 Black Gamma - -52 PP4: FLUO Matrix – - Select: FL Light - Level -8 - Phase -5 - R-G -64 - R-B -24 - G-R +64 - G-B -18 - B-R +24 - B-G -23 Detail – - Level –30 (subjective) - Frequency 15 Gamma – - Level +11 - Select: STD4 Black – -1 Black Gamma - -52 I want to say to Steven thank you for posts like this, this is why I signed up on this sight in the first place, I havent been on here much recently because most threads end up getting hijacked with stupid internet "beef" back and forth nonsense! this is the stuff I want to see, nice one. Im thinking about getting an HVX or EX1/3 for documentary and non narrative art pieces, the info in this thread is all helpful. I shot numerous projects on the HVX and HATE the lense and focus ring!!! the EX detachable lense is a big plus, but I just wonder for me to cut my own footage on final cut on my IMAC will the P2 or XD cards/codecs end up being more convinient/yield better results. Also I use PL mount adaptors whenever possible, so not having to go the HVX relay route is very attractive, I much prefer to atach the adaptor directly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Koolhaas Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 One more thing...I have found it hard to clear up if the EX1/3 comes with the card reader as standard usually, I dont have a laptop with the right slot so would need one, dont want to have to use cam as deck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Williams Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 One more thing...I have found it hard to clear up if the EX1/3 comes with the card reader as standard usually, I dont have a laptop with the right slot so would need one, dont want to have to use cam as deck! My EX3 did not come with a card reader. If you plug the camera into your computer via USB, it functions as a removable drive. You copy the files across using XDCAM Clipbrowser. Your not really using it as a deck in the strict sense, it's not playing back. It's about 6-8 times real time to copy. You might also want to look into ExpressCard adapters. Using one with SDHC cards is far cheaper than SxS, and many recent laptops have an SDHC slot. The only gotcha is limited overcranking, but you just use the SxS that comes with for that. http://mxmexpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomas Koolhaas Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 My EX3 did not come with a card reader. If you plug the camera into your computer via USB, it functions as a removable drive. You copy the files across using XDCAM Clipbrowser. Your not really using it as a deck in the strict sense, it's not playing back. It's about 6-8 times real time to copy. You might also want to look into ExpressCard adapters. Using one with SDHC cards is far cheaper than SxS, and many recent laptops have an SDHC slot. The only gotcha is limited overcranking, but you just use the SxS that comes with for that. http://mxmexpress.com/ Yeah I know what you mean, I guess I just meant that when using a Cam. as a deck you cannot use it to continue shooting, and the EX3 will be out of comission while downloading the cards, which is unacceptable to me. I also just realized I called you Steven in my other post David, for that I apologise, dont know what lead to that confussion, but thanks to you for your very helpful posts. I have been looking into it further and it seems most Cams dont come with the reader, even though on another topic on here I read someone saying they usually do. The reader is pretty pricey, I think at this point the EX3 seems the way to go (the detachable lenses, larger chips, 2/3" lense use w/adaptor is swaying me), the only issue is the cost which rises significantly with the reader and I would probably want to buy the 60G hard drive for the EX as well (260 mins of storage -depending on the setting). Do you have any experience using that drive or others with the EX? also I heard something about "flickering" on the EX, this issue is not limited to the EX by any means and can usually be fixed in camera using the shutter or similar functions (synchro scan/flicker free options on some cams) but I was wondering as someone who owns one, do you think the flicker issue is worse on the EX? is it harder to fix in cam than on other cams? Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Williams Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 (edited) I've never used the PHU-60, but reading on early versions, they were not 100% reliable. I'm sure they have improved though. You can't overcrank well (or at all?) with them. Unless you really need continuous recording time for some practical reason, I wouldn't bother with the added complexity. Extra weight, separate battery, adds another failure point, added expense. Using the MxM with SDHC cards is far cheaper, 2 x 16GB gives you @120 minutes at max quality, and you can hotswap while recording. Soon there will be usable 32GB SDHC cards, or may be already. Or you can go for the more expensive SxS cards in 32GB. The EX sensor suffers from the same problems all current CMOS sensors have, skew, partial exposure and far red or IR contamination. The EX scans the sensor from top to bottom (actually the reverse, but it's flipped for output) line by line in 1/60 of a second in NTSC modes, 1/50 in PAL. So as you move the camera, strong verticals can appear to lean slightly. Normal usage, it's unnoticeable. The same scanning causes partial flash exposures, where within the 1/60 of a second a flash either starts or finishes, making @ half the image showing a flash, the other half normal. Shutter speeds can help, but it is difficult to overcome completely. The EX is also sensitive to far red which usually shows up in certain types of black cloth under tungsten lights, sometimes sunlight too. Some blacks, most not, will appear brownish. As with any camera, you have issues you need to work around. I'm very happy with my EX3, I understood all these issues before I brought it, and there is nothing in it's price range I would swap it with. With the addition of a portable HD-SDI recorder to take advantage on the 4:2:2 10bit output, I won't need to upgrade for awhile yet. Edited March 21, 2009 by David Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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