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3-pref, 2-pref 35mm, v. super 16mm


Ger Leonard

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Accurate because you've personally verified them, or because your producer says so? If you can't get a decent quote from The Production Depot in Ireland, Movietech or Panavision in London, then I'm sure there are a number of smaller rental houses that will give you something solid and decent within your budget. There are many American rental houses that would come in under your budget even with the price of international shipping included.

They are experienced producers, and I have no reason to doubt their integrity and their figures. Those figures seem standard, but as i said lets hope we can negotiate a better deal.

 

You are very confident that even on a 25k euro budget for a 6 week shoot we would "easily" be able to secure a decent 35mm camera package.

 

I hope the producers have over-estimated the costs and you are proved right.

 

Love to hear what others think and know from experience.

 

Also is there a substantial difference in rental prices between 4-pref, 3-pref and 2-pref camera packages?

 

Again appreciate all posts.

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Time for me to chime in.

 

You can look it up, but even cropped to 1.85:1, I think 2 perf still has something like 50% more film area used than S16. You also get 35mm DoF in 2 perf, which may or may not be useful to you.

 

The savings in stock and processing are real, and exactly 50% for 2 perf and 25% for 3 perf.

 

Here's a wrinkle on projected work prints. Of course you cannot project 3 perf on a 4 perf projector. You can with 2 perf. You see 2 frames at a time (one on top of the other), but so what? If you're checking things like focus, registration, etc, it works just fine-- the action just goes by twice as fast.

 

You should know about Anders Banke of Sweden. His Russian Kinor cameras have all been converted to 2 perf, and he and DP Chris Maris shot their horror feature "Frostbiten" a couple of years ago. It went through a DI for theatrical prints. You can check out the trailer here: www.frostbiten.se

 

He just wrapped principal photography on his next feature "Newsmakers", an action adventure story set in Russia. Shot entirely 2 perf. Here are some stills: http://www.arthouse.ru/news.asp?id=7794

 

He may rent his gear in Europe, you can contact him at anders@solidentertainment.se

 

I have also heard of an Arri BL4 converted to 2 perf available at some German rental house, unfortunately I don't have any more details.

 

Best of luck,

 

Bruce Taylor

Indi35.com

 

Thanks Bruce, that could prove very useful. I'll contact Anders.

 

A basic 35mm package is 7,500 euro pw from The Production Depot, ireland. A 2-pref can be more expensive.

 

So that works out for 6 weeks as 45k. Our camera budget is currently 25k. A 20k shortfall and that doesnt take into consideration stock and processing v s16. Big ask but if dont ask wont receive.

 

Not giving up on 35mm yet, as winter could be quiet, they wont want their cameras lying idle etc..

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Wow man that's nice to know that there's a guy in SWEDEN (my country) who's actually recommended. Have to put that in mind for the future.

For what it's worth, I also really agree that, this would be in Sweden, you could easily afford a six weeks shoot with a 35mm camera for something like 25-30K.

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Hampus, another person claiming that for 25k we could "easily" afford to shoot 35mm for 6 weeks.

 

Prices for 35mm stock are around Euro 500 for 1000 feet can, we would need around 50 cans for this feature. If the 2 - perf stock usage is 50% of normal usage this will leave us with Euro 25,000 for stock price, doubling what we have in our budget. There are also other cost implications, the S16 film stock weighs less than a third of what 35mm stock weight.

This will triple the daily shipping cost to the lab.

 

And as said in last post a basic 35mm package is 7,500 euro pw from The Production Depot, ireland. A 2-pref can be more expensive. We can get a s16 package for around 1k pw.

 

From the figures i'm getting here in ireland, the word "easily" doesn't fit with 35mm for a 6 week shoot.

 

Love to have someone prove me and the producers wrong. What do you know that we don't? Please don't just say its easy, provide details of how.

 

Surely the prices are not so much higher in IRE/UK.

 

BTW we need to source equipment from IRE/UK.

 

One of producers has told me to disregard some of this "easy" talk as bravado ignoring the bottom line. These producers have made a number of features before, and should have firm grasp of realities. The are also good guys, whom i trust.

 

I don't want to pester them with throwaway 2nd hand comments like "its easy", which are meaningless without facts and figures.

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From the figures i'm getting here in ireland, the word "easily" doesn't fit with 35mm for a 6 week shoot.

 

Love to have someone prove me and the producers wrong. What do you know that we don't? Please don't just say its easy, provide details of how.

 

Surely the prices are not so much higher in IRE/UK.

 

BTW we need to source equipment from IRE/UK.

 

One of producers has told me to disregard some of this "easy" talk as bravado ignoring the bottom line. These producers have made a number of features before, and should have firm grasp of realities. The are also good guys, whom i trust.

 

I don't want to pester them with throwaway 2nd hand comments like "its easy", which are meaningless without facts and figures.

Did you come to this forum to seek advice, or just to argue with people? Since you put so much trust in your producers, let them spend their money any way they want to. Many of us on this forum actually shoot 35mm, and either own or rent our gear. We are well aware of costs, and have tried to share our experience with you. If you choose to ignore it, or chalk it up as "bravado", then why even post questions here? (FWIW, I own 2-perf, standard 35, and super 35 cameras... so I think I may know a few things about the different formats.)

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And as said in last post a basic 35mm package is 7,500 euro pw from The Production Depot, ireland. A 2-pref can be more expensive. We can get a s16 package for around 1k pw.

 

Hi,

 

For those no's you are looking at a top recent 35mm package but a totally crap s16 package. Lenses, Mattebox, follow focus tripods etc cost the same so you are not compating like with like. If you phoned any top rental house they could supply you with a set up within budget, you might get a BL4s or 535 rather than an Arricam.

 

I have bought 2 Ultracam 35 packages with 13 Zeiss lenses for under $20,000 not euros.

 

Stephen

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Did you come to this forum to seek advice, or just to argue with people? Since you put so much trust in your producers, let them spend their money any way they want to. Many of us on this forum actually shoot 35mm, and either own or rent our gear. We are well aware of costs, and have tried to share our experience with you. If you choose to ignore it, or chalk it up as "bravado", then why even post questions here? (FWIW, I own 2-perf, standard 35, and super 35 cameras... so I think I may know a few things about the different formats.)

I came to seek advice, not to argue. All our figures point to s16mm. As the director i am very interested in exploring the possibilites of shooting 35mm, be it 4-pref, 3-pref, 2-pref.

 

I was not questioning your knowledge, and i apologize if appeared so.

 

I started this topic to find out if there were 35mm options on our budget.

 

You can understand the frustration when the figures my producers have for 35mm means its impossible, while at same time i'm being informed here that it is in fact more than possible.

 

Before i started this topic we had budgeted for s16. While searching here i came across some info on 3-pref and 2-pref. I posted the topic to figure out if it was viable.

 

I do trust my producers, and i have no reason to doubt you.

 

Please believe me when i say this. I wish to offend no one. All I was seeking in last post was information to persuade my producers that 35mm is indeed possible as you and others here have said it is.

 

Of course i believe you when you say that on a similar budget 35mm is possible in the US.

 

Our budget model is tied in with commitments to irish and some UK spend. Perhaps this is why at least so far we haven't found a route to make 35mm possible.

 

I really would be delighted to find a way to shoot 35mm in Ireland.

 

I am not a producer nor am i a cameraman, just a director with some questions.

 

Thanks.

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Hi,

 

For those no's you are looking at a top recent 35mm package but a totally crap s16 package. Lenses, Mattebox, follow focus tripods etc cost the same so you are not compating like with like. If you phoned any top rental house they could supply you with a set up within budget, you might get a BL4s or 535 rather than an Arricam.

 

I have bought 2 Ultracam 35 packages with 13 Zeiss lenses for under $20,000 not euros.

 

Stephen

Cheers Stephen.. thanks for that.

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Ger everything in the UK is a rip off you just cant compare US to here . hope you sort it out and everthing goes well , by the way what Stephen Murphy said about getting your DP on board as soon as poss. would be a great help i think .

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Our budget is approx 1.6m.

Therein lies your answer. It's all a matter of proportion. At the end of the shoot, all the actors and crew go home, all the rental items go back to the vendors, and the only thing your producers have left to show for all that money is the film that was in your camera. If it's worth spending that much to make the show, it's worth 35/3 perf to preserve all that value. We're talking about less than 5% of the budget.

 

Some people have mentioned workprint, and if that's in your budget, it may be the place to find the money you need. Telecine instead, cut on FCP or Avid, watch video dailies, and scan only the selects for the DI. (You may want to scan or blow up a few selected takes the first day, just to check at full resolution that there's nothing horribly wrong with the camera.)

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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Therein lies your answer. It's all a matter of proportion. At the end of the shoot, all the actors and crew go home, all the rental items go back to the vendors, and the only thing your producers have left to show for all that money is the film that was in your camera. If it's worth spending that much to make the show, it's worth 35/3 perf to preserve all that value. We're talking about less than 5% of the budget.

 

Some people have mentioned workprint, and if that's in your budget, it may be the place to find the money you need. Telecine instead, cut on FCP or Avid, watch video dailies, and scan only the selects for the DI.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

 

Hi John,

 

Exactly, I know a recent features shot 4 perf 35mm for 1/10 of that budget.

 

Stephen

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Therein lies your answer. It's all a matter of proportion. At the end of the shoot, all the actors and crew go home, all the rental items go back to the vendors, and the only thing your producers have left to show for all that money is the film that was in your camera. If it's worth spending that much to make the show, it's worth 35/3 perf to preserve all that value. We're talking about less than 5% of the budget.

 

Some people have mentioned workprint, and if that's in your budget, it may be the place to find the money you need. Telecine instead, cut on FCP or Avid, watch video dailies, and scan only the selects for the DI. (You may want to scan or blow up a few selected takes the first day, just to check at full resolution that there's nothing horribly wrong with the camera.)

 

 

-- J.S.

 

Our budget may not go as high as 1.6m euro but 1.4 +m certainly. Even so your point about proportion is well made.

 

Appreciate what you say about the workprint and workflow, could be place to start finding the money needed.

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

I'll run this by my producers and when in place our DOP.

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Time for me to chime in.

 

You can look it up, but even cropped to 1.85:1, I think 2 perf still has something like 50% more film area used than S16. You also get 35mm DoF in 2 perf, which may or may not be useful to you.

 

Best of luck,

 

Bruce Taylor

Indi35.com

 

Thats true to an extent. One cannot forget that framing for 2-perf scope with the same lenses will yield a new Field of View, which is directly connected to DOF. You will likely be getting wider by using either wide lenses or being further back, in order to frame your shot accordingly within the format which means less depth of field.

 

that shouldn't be overlooked.

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Thats true to an extent. One cannot forget that framing for 2-perf scope with the same lenses will yield a new Field of View, which is directly connected to DOF. You will likely be getting wider by using either wide lenses or being further back, in order to frame your shot accordingly within the format which means less depth of field.

 

that shouldn't be overlooked.

 

Hi Allen, don't you mean it will cause more depth of field? Framing 1.85 on 2-perf will cause a deeper depth of field, because you are using wider lenses or greater distances to achieve the equivalent field of view, is that correct?

 

Cheers,

Andy

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I must admit that I'm kind of confused how the kit side of things can be this much difference in any country. as stephen says you still need the same accesories you still need the glass etc. if you are going with like for like gear the premium is not 7.5x! rate card in london would add a few hundred a day for the camera. of course if you are shooting on an old sr1 with some old glass then you can get that for nothing (but if you are going down that route why not get a crusty 35mm), but shoot on a 416 with good modern glass and i have to ask what your producers are smoking to come up with figures like that.

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Hi Allen, don't you mean it will cause more depth of field? Framing 1.85 on 2-perf will cause a deeper depth of field, because you are using wider lenses or greater distances to achieve the equivalent field of view, is that correct?

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

yes. mis typed. thank you.

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I must admit that I'm kind of confused how the kit side of things can be this much difference in any country. as stephen says you still need the same accesories you still need the glass etc. if you are going with like for like gear the premium is not 7.5x! rate card in london would add a few hundred a day for the camera. of course if you are shooting on an old sr1 with some old glass then you can get that for nothing (but if you are going down that route why not get a crusty 35mm), but shoot on a 416 with good modern glass and i have to ask what your producers are smoking to come up with figures like that.

 

I rang The Production Depot in wicklow, ireland, myself and 7,500k euro pw is the quote i got for a basic 35mm package. I asked for the lowest price package. I wasn't smoking at the time and to the best of my knowledge neither were they.

 

With a DOP on board we may be able to get price down a bit but that's the quote i received.

 

Even if we managed to get the 35mm package price down to within budget, we still have to deal with stock, processing, shipping etc..

 

Many Uk and Irish films on roughly similar budget to ours have gone down s16mmm route.

 

Some may have chosen s16 for aesthetic reasons but most I would imagine for budgetary ones. Some of these look pretty good. Of course s16 lends itself to a rough and ready, gritty look. I put up 2 screengrabs earlier to suggest the style I'm after.

 

Key visual references for my film include: Lynne Ramsey's Ratcather and Gasman, The Bill Douglas Trilogy, Terrence Davies, K Kieslowski, Coppola's The Converstaion, Bela Tarr, Gus Van Sant.

 

You can tell from this list what i DONT want.. Shaky handheld camerawork and fast cuts, often but certainly not always a style associated with s16.

 

Some s16mm Films

 

UK

This is England, My Summer of Love, Vera Drake, 28 days later, London to Brighton, The History Boys, Dead Man's Shoes, Wonderland

 

Ireland

Adam & Paul, Intermission

 

American films:

Mean Creek, The Station Agent, Junebug, The Ballad of Jack and Rose, Half Nelson, ..

 

European:

L'Enfant, The Counterfeiters, ....

 

Central and South American

The Motorcycle Diaries, Japon, ....

 

I've not given up on 35mm (thats why i started this topic)

and as always advice welcome.

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