Impact of economy

[John Sprung]

... as we find the failings in socialism. ... I think there is a reason we say 'shoot a picture,' as they can be as powerful as firearms, if not more so. ...

Yup, why bother to have an income if it's only going to get redistributed?

 

I think we have the "shoot a picture" thing the wrong way around. The camera takes a picture. The projector is the thing that shoots pictures, blasting photons at the screen. ;-)

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Quite true! but shoot a picture sounds so much cooler than "trap an image." Shooting is more active, whereas trapping is passive ;)

 

not to go too far off topic, but did anyone else hear laugh when they really figured out what a photon torpedo would do?

 

As for income; I like mine so as I can feed my coffee addictions, as well as burrito lust. So long as it's not 100% redistribution, then I don't think we'll balk too much so, though you're right in pointing out that as the % of "coverage," for others increases, often the % of will to work decreases.

[James Steven Beverly]

Dude, WE don't need to have our "wealth", meager as it may be, redistributed, that's the LIE the rich try and perpertrate on us. The top 1% that has 90% of the money are the ones that need to have THEIR wealth re-distributed. Come on, remember that great line from Wall Street "How many yachts can you water ski behind?!!" You mean to tell me the super rich can't survive in 60% of a billion dollar income when you and I have to worry about whether or not we can pay our electric bill? The middle class BACKBONE of this nation has a one HELL of a time surviving on 70% of a 50 thousand dollar a year income while the rich summer in the Bahamas and scheme to make MORE money! LOOK at the oil companies, 4 f*ckin' dollars a gallon billions of dollars in quarterly profits THEN miracle of miracles, the recession/depression hits and NOBODY can afford $4 buck a gallon gas so BAM! 2 dollar a gallon gas...ISN'T that amazing.

 

The rich pay no taxes, have mansions all over the globe, are COMPENSATED when their incompetence destroys a company that takes every DIME of the life savings of people who actually have to work for their money with tens to hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars while the middle class pays ALL the taxes, have their JOBS sent overseas to be done by people so poor they are willing to do it for pennies on the dollar and shrink in numbers because the cooperations use government to systematically destroy the middle class in order to create an near SLAVE class of citizens .

 

The damned POOR can't even afford to go to a doctor when they get sick, have trouble just trying to FEED their families and spend their lives in wretched, miserable struggle trying to eck out a living making the rich richer. Let's call a spade a spade and DO call it GREED 'cause GREED is EXACTLY what it is. B)

Edited November 19, 2008 by James Steven Beverly

[David Rakoczy]

The rich pay no taxes, \

Your Share of Tax?

What's Your Share?

Edited November 19, 2008 by David Rakoczy

[James Steven Beverly]

Yes but we're not talking about the top 5%, we're talking about the top 1% that control the REAL money who would spend 150k on a CAR and has a dozen of them. By you OWN figures they pay less in taxes than your 5% and that says NOTHING about what they pay to employees who are the people that MAKE them all that money. The fact remain that 20 percent of 500 dollars a month taken out is a much greater burden to handle that 60% of a hundred thousand dollars a month. I personally could live quite comfortably on 40K a month so could ANYONE but that's not reality is it. The fact of the matter is that 40% is just on personal income not cooperate assets used by and in reality OWNED by these rich bastards. You think private jets, yachts and homes in foreign countries are in their names? Wake up and smell the tax breaks. There's more loopholes and dodges for the rich than than a WWI dogfight. How many "charitable" institutions are formed SOLELY for the purposes of hiding asset. Your problem is you think in straight lines when these people got to where they are by being as crooked as a road in the Alps. They rig the game then expect you to treat them fairly and you do because you can't see how the game is really being played. Well Canada Dave, you want to keep on playing Faro, you go right ahead but I'm gonna tell you the game is fixed and there's no way IN HELL an honest man is gonna win unless somebody else gets to deal. B)

[David Rakoczy]

Well Canada Dave, you want to keep on playing Faro, you go right ahead but I'm gonna tell you the game is fixed and there's no way IN HELL an honest man is gonna win unless somebody else gets to deal. B)

 

Huh?

 

I don't know where to begin... so this is probably a good place to end...

[Paul Bruening]

I must agree with Steven. My father was a Sociologist here at Ole Piss. One of his many sub-disciplines was Social Control Theory. So, I grew up with that morning, noon and night. James may not know it but he's speaking the language of Social Control Theory.

 

But, I am interested in any impacts on Hellywood. Any Californian posters with inside, trench-level news from glitter town?

[Guest]

To be clear the current economic situation is no where close to the 30s or even the early 80s.

 

Remember the recession of the early 80s, that was a REAL recession, interest rates hit 20%!! Today prime in the USA is 1%. Unemployment in the USA is still under 7% as of today at least.

 

Prices at the pump have fallen dramatically since last year and that is putting billions back into the hands of American consumers.

 

If you didn't have money in the stock market then the so called "crash" didn't affect you directly.

 

There are actually a number of positives out there.

 

If Americans didn't watch the news for a month the US economy would BOOM. The media just loves to report as much doom and gloom as they possibly can, they know it scares the poop out of people. The hilarious thing is that the media needs to report doom and gloom to attract viewers, these viewers then get freaked out and stop spending, the slow down in spending causes a drop in ad revenue for media companies and they have to lay off employees!

 

It's happening right now here in Canada and the doom and gloom the Canadian media keep reporting isn't even really happening here.

 

I especially love it when reporters use the word "depression" they really have no clue. We are a very long way from the conditions of the 30s.

 

R,

[Stephen Williams]

I especially love it when reporters use the word "depression" they really have no clue. We are a very long way from the conditions of the 30s.

 

R,

 

Hi Richard,

 

You will be able to buy that Hummer you always promised yourself, very very cheaply & spend no more on petrol than you did last year with your 'old' 4x4.

 

Stephen

[John Sprung]

If you didn't have money in the stock market then the so called "crash" didn't affect you directly.

Indirectly is bad enough. Try selling a house. The first buyer we had went bankrupt after two years of litigation. Buyer #2 lost his a$$ in the market and had to drop out. Buyer #3 was the agent's last hail mary, it didn't work. I found buyer #4 myself. He's going to tell me today whether he was able to get a loan. Oh, and we've dropped the price from 890 to 625.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Paul Bruening]

Indirectly is bad enough. Try selling a house. The first buyer we had went bankrupt after two years of litigation. Buyer #2 lost his a$$ in the market and had to drop out. Buyer #3 was the agent's last hail mary, it didn't work. I found buyer #4 myself. He's going to tell me today whether he was able to get a loan. Oh, and we've dropped the price from 890 to 625.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

 

Hey John,

 

I'm in the same kind of hell with my dad's house. Even though the property values have dropped massively, the taxes are still rated at the 2 years ago inflated assessments. There are 2,600 properties for sale here in Oxford. A town with a population of around 18,000. Nothing is selling.

 

I'm screwed.

[Paul Bruening]

Richard,

 

I've been trying to stay out of the economic theory aspect that this thread, and all threads like it, has awakened. But, I'm going to break my own rules and throw something in.

 

As computers have taken a central role in the action of the economy, our society has not been able to keep up. Year after year economic activity has had to speed up at the human level to keep up with the massive and rapid changes that the computer has brought. Our economy has become, in effect, a giant river flowing at a rapid and massive rate. Characteristic of this ginormous river it must flow like this or falter. We humans can't keep up. It gets out of hand and it sputters. But, it CAN'T do this. It must flow and flow big. Right now, it is sputtering with parts of our system failing because of it. These parts are failing in ways never before seen. Regardless of what various authorities tell us, they don't really know what to do about it. So, they're just throwing money at the problem hoping to stop the sputtering and get the flow back up.

 

It is a comfort to compare our current situation to past models. But, I don't think they apply very accurately. No one has ever seen an economy driven by computers before (long history, speaking). We just don't know what the hell we have created. It's a genuine Frankenstein monster. We don't know how to control it.

[Guest]

Hi Richard,

 

You will be able to buy that Hummer you always promised yourself, very very cheaply & spend no more on petrol than you did last year with your 'old' 4x4.

 

Stephen

 

Yeah! Excellent point, no more crappy V8 gas guzzling Touareg, hello sweet Hummer.

 

 

Indirectly is bad enough. Try selling a house. The first buyer we had went bankrupt after two years of litigation. Buyer #2 lost his a$$ in the market and had to drop out. Buyer #3 was the agent's last hail mary, it didn't work. I found buyer #4 myself. He's going to tell me today whether he was able to get a loan. Oh, and we've dropped the price from 890 to 625.

-- J.S.

 

625? Holy *bleep* that would buy you a mansion where I live.

 

 

Richard,

It is a comfort to compare our current situation to past models. But, I don't think they apply very accurately. No one has ever seen an economy driven by computers before (long history, speaking). We just don't know what the hell we have created. It's a genuine Frankenstein monster. We don't know how to control it.

 

That does not compute, all those who oppose computers must be exterminated. Exterminate...Exterminate.....Exterminate.

 

R,

[David Rakoczy]

If Americans didn't watch the news for a month the US economy would BOOM. The media just loves to report as much doom and gloom as they possibly can, they know it scares the poop out of people. The hilarious thing is that the media needs to report doom and gloom to attract viewers, these viewers then get freaked out and stop spending, the slow down in spending causes a drop in ad revenue for media companies and they have to lay off employees!

 

I couldn't agree more.

[Ralph Keyser]

... I was really hoping to hear that producers were finding ways to keep the river of production flowing by changing techniques or strategies. Simply quitting isn't such great news. Has anyone seen significant changes in methods associated with getting the job done but without spending the insane kind of money that Hellywood usually spends?

 

Insane is all relative, of course. The size army that it takes to make full-up Hollywood features might be considered insane by some, but they can accomplish some amazing things.

 

Anyway, I'd agree that most of the "real work" has tapered off significantly. This always seems to be a slow time of year for me anyway, and the current state of the economy has not helped matters any. I am seeing the producers I know doing more small speculative projects, or putting together low-budget shoots that appeal to them personally.

 

As for significant changes in methods, I wouldn't expect to see that as a result of this small slowdown. Producers do the things that work for them, and they are usually very careful with their dollars. If something works, then they tend to stick with it.

 

Just my $0.02...

[Greg Traw]

I may be in the minority here, but a small smile comes to my face as I watch the stock market plummet with each passing day... :D

 

Call me a sadist, but I like watching people losing money. I've played poker semi-professionally and professionally for nearly 10 years, so I know what it's like to watch rent, bills, etc. magically disappear before my very eyes. Mind you, I don't wish true pain on anyone, but monetary pain is always good for the soul and builds character. It's also nice to know someone else is feeling the "pain" I feel every day when I sit down at a poker table or open up my online account.

 

Let's be honest, the middle-class is going to be hurt the most by all of this: They have the most to lose. The poor have always been struggling, so it's just business as usual for them. And the rich -- UNFORTUNATELY -- are going to stay rich. But what's it matter, right? What have the middle-class contributed to humanity at large? Ranch dressing? Minivans? Tract housing? Astro-turf? The popularity of superhero movies?

 

Perhaps, all this collective greed is finally catching up with us? On a romantic and idealistic level, maybe it will create a new existential revolution in our country as individuals won't be able to rely on their liquid assets and material possessions for self-worth anymore. A rise in the arts that we haven't seen since the sixties may be coming?

 

Remember "The Third Man?" Cuckoo Clocks -- Tick, tock, tick, tock!!!

 

P.S. To compare this time period to the Depression is RIDICULOUS!!! This kind of thinking is what got us where we are right now!!! Looking at the numbers and NOT at the social, economic and HUMAN connotations behind the numbers. I think we all can agree the world is vastly more complex and can't be put into any simple formula or theorem.

[Benson Marks]

If Americans didn't watch the news for a month the US economy would BOOM. The media just loves to report as much doom and gloom as they possibly can, they know it scares the poop out of people. The hilarious thing is that the media needs to report doom and gloom to attract viewers, these viewers then get freaked out and stop spending, the slow down in spending causes a drop in ad revenue for media companies and they have to lay off employees!

 

Indeed. I limited my time on the news drastically after the election was over. All this apocalyptic hype going on has made me so dead mad I'm ready to scream if I hear the word "depression" one more time. It's reassuring to know things are not like they were in the past. Sure, we've got problems right now, but it's always good to learn that we've been in times worse than this. That said, it might take a while for things to improve, but I don't think this economic trouble is going to last forever. The Great Depression had to end somewhere even though it took more than a decade to fix.

 

Sure, I may be too optimistic, but there has to be a light at the end of this economic tunnel. The only question is, "Where does it end?"

[Guest]

Sure, I may be too optimistic, but there has to be a light at the end of this economic tunnel. The only question is, "Where does it end?"

 

The hilarious thing about the word "recession" is that all of these so called experts and economists can never agree on when it starts or when it ends.

 

In Canada there have been a hundred "studies" that say Canada will avoid a recession and another hundred that say we will not.

 

Harry S Truman once said he wished he could meet an economist with one arm because they always say, "but on the other hand...."

 

I think economists practice the new sophistry of our age, the more terrifying their prediction the more ink and air time they get.

 

R,

[John Sprung]

625? Holy *bleep* that would buy you a mansion where I live.

Worse, downsizing to a retirement place, we paid 741 two years ago. So even at 625, if it works, I'm still in the hole.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Ira Ratner]

1787, close.

 

The one thing that intrigues me about people that put money into the stock market is the reason why they do it?

 

Basically they want some thing for nothing. I put a thousand dollars in, and then through no hard work of my own at all, I expect $1500.00 back out at the end of the year!

 

Wrong, and here's why.

 

And mind you--I'm no financial wizard, just another shmuck, but see if this doesn't make sense to you:

 

Stock prices at one time KIND OF reflected a company's profitability, or potential for profitability. And you had a % of the population playing in the market. Let's say 20% of American people invested in the market in 1970. This is a total GUESS on my part here, but I bet I'm not far off.

 

Well, guess what else we still had in 1970? We had company sponsored and paid for pension/retirement plans--THE MAJORITY OF DOLLARS OF WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH INVESTMENTS IN THE MARKET, UNLESS YOUR PLAN ALSO INCLUDED FREE COMPANY STOCK. Otherwise, the dollars were just deposited and actually earned respectable interest rates at the time. None of this affected the play of the market.

 

Fast forward to Reagan and the 401K plan, where your contributions were tax-deferred, and most companies MATCHED your contribution dollar for dollar from day one. Remember that these were the old STUPID days of America, where it was still actually considered okay and non-communist to provide workers with a reliable retirement plan.

 

But there was a big rub to all of this:

 

You now HAD to put your money in the market. You're not even given the OPTION of putting it into a safe savings account guaranteed up to $100,000.

 

So what happens next?

 

All of this money floods the markets, prices are now bullshittingly (is that a word?) mis-inflated beyond belief, and nothing means nothing any more. The market has always been and always will be a sleazy shell game. Except now, you have 80% of Americans in on the action because it's the only pension/retirement action in town. And only the brokerage houses are making money left and right with all of this. Of course, the government makes out pretty good too--because despite all of the prosperity bullshit, tons of people have to pull money from their accounts, pay the regular tax, PLUS AN EXTRA 10% PENALTY!!!

 

And oh--little by little, companies didn't even bother matching dollar for dollar. They made you wait 5 years to be fully vested, and even then, you were lucky to get 50% of your contribution matched by them. Then, year by year, they gave you less and less. Because the standard was polluted.

 

It was the destruction of an American RIGHT!!! That if you worked 20, 30 years for a company, that you were entitled to a decent retirement! But the Republicans pulled their normal BS and somehow said that this idea was BAD for America. That helping workers like this was DAMAGING our economy. And by doing away with this, businesses will do better and ALL Americans will prosper like never before!

 

And of course, Mr. Genius Bush and McCain actually had the balls to try and push through privatizing Social Security to perpetuate this same madness, investing that money in the market.

 

I will just never understand what planet some of you guys on the other side of the aisle are living on.

 

But thank God, that's over for now.

[Ira Ratner]

The secret is to buy when prices are low & sell when prices are high

 

CRAP! WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US THIS BEFORE!?

 

This was a joke, and please don't be offended by my post.

 

But you have to admit that this part of YOUR post is pretty rhetorical.

[Guest]

You now HAD to put your money in the market. You're not even given the OPTION of putting it into a safe savings account guaranteed up to $100,000.

 

Ok under that scenario you would be correct, if you're in a mandatory company plan that puts your money into the market there isn't much you can do.

 

But if you are self employed, no one is forcing you to gamble your money in the stock market. If you want to give it to crooks, that's your business, just don't cry and ask for public funds when the CEO is arrested for using company money to throw his wife a three million dollar birthday party.

 

The sucky part of this Wall Street bail out is that people who never put a dime into the markets must now see their tax money used to help those that did.

 

R,

[David Rakoczy]

The sucky part of this Wall Street bail out is that people who never put a dime into the markets must now see their tax money used to help those that did.

 

R,

 

Amen brother.... they should be allowed the same courtesy all of us are allotted.. the option to fail.

[Stephen Williams]

CRAP! WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US THIS BEFORE!?

 

This was a joke, and please don't be offended by my post.

 

But you have to admit that this part of YOUR post is pretty rhetorical.

 

Hi,

 

Not really, you get major buying & selling opportunities more often than you think, often both can occur in the same day in today's market. In the short term the market is a voting machine, over the longer term it's a balance, pick up bargains when they stare you in the face.

 

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

The sucky part of this Wall Street bail out is that people who never put a dime into the markets must now see their tax money used to help those that did.

 

R,

 

Hi Richard,

 

You making an assumption that the government will loose money on their investments. The government already taxed those people when they earnt their money in the first place & taxed them again when they made profits, so on balance the Wall Street investors have been subsidising the rest. With the huge amount of trading taking place, more taxes will be generated there are 2 sides to every sale, only one party can be a looser!

 

Stephen