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Paul Bruening

Evolution vs. ID vs. God

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Maybe, we need an even newer paradigm. Something that will totally blow our brains right out of our numb skulls.

How about String Theory?

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There is a flaw with this argument. People that only believe what they "see/hear/prove/diprove" are basing their BELIEFS on facts, not on faith. So those people don't need to use faith to believe what they believe, so they aren't exercising any faith at all.

 

I'm as atheist as the next guy but, one could argue that people who base all of their beliefs on facts put a lot of faith in their sensorium perceiving factual data (let putting your faith in what a scientist says).

 

Being topical (in the off-topic forum): I've never had two camera systems/film stocks/lenses perceive the facts of a scene precisely the same.

 

Huzzah for Descartes, screwing with your head since the 17th century.

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I disagree about your assertions about "disproving" things as well. There is no need to disprove most things. If you can prove it, it exists, if you can't prove it, then there is SOME possibility that it exists. That doesn't mean it does, it just means there is no proof one way or the other.

It would seem, that scientifically speaking, until Evolution, ID or Creation can actually be disproved, they must all be allowed as possible explanations for the presence of life on Earth... it is not sufficient to simply prove that species evolve, one must demonstrate (by disproving all other possibilities) that Evolution is the only way for life to exist on Earth.

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So, according to this, we know that the "earth is round" only because we know the "earth is not square."

Just a scientific point of view.

 

No, I know it's round 'cause I've seen pictures of it from space also because the last bit you can see as a ship moves off into the horizon is the top of it's mast. You're over thinking the whole problem, the earth is not round only because we know it is not square, it's not round at all, it's egg shaped and we know it's egg shaped because we've studied it. It's egg shaped because it is no other shape but is that a constant? Is that Earth always egg shaped?

 

Look everyone is sitting here quote scripture and the oldest know translation of the Torah, but did it ever occur to anyone that these were books written by men that were interpreted by OTHER men separated by centuries and coming from a completely different culture with VERY little understanding or actually ability ot scientifically dissect they writer's true intent and cultural implications then translated into several other languages as the centuries go on? They say this book was divinely inspired and handed down by God, yet the biggest religion in the world is not Judaism or Christianity or even Islam but Buddhism which would logically mean God was not smart enough to inspire Buddha as well OR even make it clear enough so that there would be no need for 3 separate and completely different religions to KILL each other on a regular basis in it's name.

 

This whole idea of intelligent design just makes me laugh. It is truly like looking for a forest and being unable to find it because of all the damn trees that are blocking your view. In their arrogance they say Man is so intelligent God MUST have designed him. Look around you, look at all the complexities of nature in all it's forms and you guys sit there searching for some the giant, omnipotent magician who just pulled a live rabbit out of his hat rather than realizing existence it's self is miraculous. The fact that a rock exists is just as miraculous as the fact that man exists. If God wanted to build something, how would he do it? Why wouldn't he/she allow that creation to begin and work EXACTLY the way it did from the VERY beginning? Why do we exclude the scientific explanation of how the universe began and the idea of evaluation as the works of God and a continuation of the miracle of the existence of all things? Like it is somehow separate and couldn't have all been the way God intended to create it all along because we're capable of understanding how it works and there's no magic involved? Does that mean it couldn't possibly be what God meant to do? It's just narrow minded, arrogant thinking.

 

I FIRMLY believe in God, not because of all this religious nonsense but because of all the little tiny coincidences that happen every day, the little non-earth shaking miracles that occur all the time. The whole idea of religion to me is absurd and the idea that someone can consider one religion the only TRUE religion borders on insanity. The very idea that one could know the mind of God is ludicrous. It like the joke about the three blind men describing an elephant and reminds me of Ronnie Cox's line from Total Recall "Who told you to THINK!! I don't give you enough information to think!" A BEST we each really only have a infinitesimally small part of the puzzle so like Mother on the Nostromo, we don't have enough data to offer a recommendation. I mean we are very close to creating life from inanimate matter in the laboratory and have already built machines that can think and learn at the equivalent level of a mouse we also know that matter is energy and energy is matter, we've even began experiments to warp space/time in the laboratory, the first baby steps to building an actually working warp drive. We've unlocked to blueprint of living organisms to created animals that never existed before, we've incorporated machines into our bodies to become partially bionic, we can communicate with people anywhere on Earth instantly, we can go faster, fly higher, and go deeper than any animal on Earth. We've even left our own planet to visit a world incapable of supporting live 7 times and are planning to live there permanently as we now live 220 miles above the Earth's surface. We are closing in on the secrets of the Universe all except one. At the extreme far edge of mathematics is where the concept of existence begins. Past that edge is only Philosophy. B)

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No, I know it's round 'cause I've seen pictures of it from space also because the last bit you can see as a ship moves off into the horizon is the top of it's mast.

And how do you know that it's round (egg-shaped) by looking at it? Because it doesn't have four sides and four corners.

:D I'm just kidding.

 

 

.... yet the biggest religion in the world is not Judaism or Christianity or even Islam but Buddhism...

 

Not true. Christianity is at 33.2% (2.1 billion'ish), Muslims at 21%, and Buddhists under 6%. Many speculate that there are about twice as many buddhists as recorded in consensus, but that would still bring it up to a paltry 12%, at best.

 

Look everyone is sitting here quote scripture and the oldest know translation of the Torah, but did it ever occur to anyone that these were books written by men that were interpreted by OTHER men separated by centuries and coming from a completely different culture with VERY little understanding or actually ability ot scientifically dissect they writer's true intent and cultural implications then translated into several other languages as the centuries go on?

Yes, it's occured to a few. ;)

You would be very interested in what's called Apologetics.

 

OR even make it clear enough so that there would be no need for 3 separate and completely different religions to KILL each other on a regular basis in it's name.

 

It is clear enough. Let's leave the bible and keep it as historically accurate as possible:

Abraham, a patriarch of Judaism, coming from Ur, said that God told him he'd have a son. His wife believed him. Well, time passed and no son. What did his wife do? She gave her mistress to him, thinking that that would be the mother of his Son. Well, they banged and out came Ishmael (the grand-daddy of Islam). God evidently told them that Ishmael would be a "wild donkey" of a man and he'd fight with everyone and everyone would fight with him. Poor dude. Well, later they had the son Isaac. Who led to the creation of Israel. This is all just common history, regardless of whether God really "talked" to them, they had two sons who branched off to form Judaism and Islam.

Hence the first conflict you are talking about.

Later, through the line of King David, Jesus is born claiming to fulfill Judaism in His name. He claims to be the Son of God and even God himself. A rebellious group of individuals (who later called themselves Christians) broke off from Judaism to follow Jesus. The second conflict. He is crucified, not by Roman Law in is exclusivity, but by the mainstream religion of the day. Judaism.

Interesting that the main religion of the day had it's cold hands on the balls of the government, underneath the table. Sound familiar?

 

So, according to our understanding of history, it seems as if it is people who want to kill in the name of their religion more than God confusing people to be murderous.

Don't get me started on the crusades...

 

Why do we exclude the scientific explanation of how the universe began and the idea of evaluation as the works of God and a continuation of the miracle of the existence of all things? Like it is somehow separate and couldn't have all been the way God intended to create it all along because we're capable of understanding how it works and there's no magic involved? Does that mean it couldn't possibly be what God meant to do? It's just narrow minded, arrogant thinking.

 

I don't exclude scientific explanation as being invalid. In matter of fact, I have supported this very perspective as seen in my prior posts.

 

I FIRMLY believe in God, not because of all this religious nonsense but because of all the little tiny coincidences that happen every day, the little non-earth shaking miracles that occur all the time.

 

Agreed. Hence the reason I posted the verse from Romans chapter one in a prior post.

You seem to be more on track with Christianity than most Christians!

Christianity was never meant to be a "religion." That's what man has done to it.

 

The very idea that one could know the mind of God is ludicrous.

 

Yep. No where are Christians told to know the mind of God. In matter of fact, it was Satan who told mankind that he could (Genesis 3: 4-5).

 

And, of course we will create. Christianity tells us that we are created in the image of God, so there will be likened attributes within humans that reflects the capacity to create and recreate (on a smaller scale) fundamental principles of life, be it mechanical, biological, etc.

 

The reason I use scripture is to provide an accurate perspective of a true Christian in debates around Christianity, as many Christians unfortunately use it to just pick and choose what works best for them. And this can often confuse someone who hasn't, or doesn't want to study this type of literature/history/culture in great detail. I understand that if one is not a Christian, it's just a book that Uncle Charles uses to yell at people on the side of the street with and-for some reason-has gold feathering on its pages. So, in an argumentative fashion, it is inconsequential if it is truth or if it is not, since my motives are not so much persuasion, but clarity of understanding.

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It would seem, that scientifically speaking, until Evolution, ID or Creation can actually be disproved, they must all be allowed as possible explanations for the presence of life on Earth... it is not sufficient to simply prove that species evolve, one must demonstrate (by disproving all other possibilities) that Evolution is the only way for life to exist on Earth.

Yeah, it would certainly seem that way if you're talking about scientific proof. The question is, why would someone believe in something that hasn't been proven over the last couple thousand years, instead of believing in the thing(s) that has been proven? At least, that's always been MY question.... There are facts, and there is speculation and theory. I personally always go with the facts.

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And how do you know that it's round (egg-shaped) by looking at it? Because it doesn't have four sides and four corners.

:D I'm just kidding.

Well mainly because if a boat seems to sink behind the ocean's horizon and it's not actually sinking, then ipso facto, it must be moving over a curve and if this occurs on every ocean no matter what direction it's moving it and the world is covered in oceans then the world be curved in all directions which would mean the Earth is spherical and therefore either round or egg shaped...........and also because it doesn't have four sides and four corners.

 

 

Not true. Christianity is at 33.2% (2.1 billion'ish), Muslims at 21%, and Buddhists under 6%. Many speculate that there are about twice as many buddhists as recorded in consensus, but that would still bring it up to a paltry 12%, at best.

 

I think your figures may be off but let's just assume they're not. 33.2% still kinda sucks for an omnipotent being trying to get the most important message of all times across don't ya think? Not to MENTION the fate of those poor people in pockets of isolation that were never given the opportunity to be save so immediately pass go, do NOT collect $200 dollars and end up straight in Hell goin' "Ain't this a Bitch!!" given that whole original sin thing and the "I am the light and the way non shall see the Kingdom of Heaven but through me" deal breaker as well as the 4.2 billion'ish Buddhists and countless other people that end up the main coarse at an eternal BBQ according to Christian doctrine because their families, neighbors and most of the people in their nation have been practicing their religion for centuries and see no reason to change their beliefs because some cat with a book and a stiff collar tells them they outta or they're gonna burn forever, maybe because they don't usually pay attention to people they consider kooks or because they've seen all the wonderful things the Christians have done to other NON-Christian people through the centuries like the way the Spaniards helped the Indians in South America or the way the Jews were helped by Pope during WWII.

 

 

Yes, it's occured to a few. ;)

You would be very interested in what's called Apologetics.

 

It doesn't seem to have happened to near enough. I kinda doubt I would be interested in Apologetics, because it's still connected to Christianity and eventually all organized religions corrupt into a struggle to gain and maintain power plus I don't believe Christianity is necessarily correct in it's beliefs, see it's not just the ignoring of provable science which I have problems with, it's the absolute conviction that their's is the only true religion and that the book that the entire religion is based on is loaded with contradictions and things I find obtuse.

 

It is clear enough. Let's leave the bible and keep it as historically accurate as possible:

Abraham, a patriarch of Judaism, coming from Ur, said that God told him he'd have a son. His wife believed him. Well, time passed and no son. What did his wife do? She gave her mistress to him, thinking that that would be the mother of his Son. Well, they banged and out came Ishmael (the grand-daddy of Islam). God evidently told them that Ishmael would be a "wild donkey" of a man and he'd fight with everyone and everyone would fight with him. Poor dude. Well, later they had the son Isaac. Who led to the creation of Israel. This is all just common history, regardless of whether God really "talked" to them, they had two sons who branched off to form Judaism and Islam.

Hence the first conflict you are talking about.

Later, through the line of King David, Jesus is born claiming to fulfill Judaism in His name. He claims to be the Son of God and even God himself. A rebellious group of individuals (who later called themselves Christians) broke off from Judaism to follow Jesus. The second conflict. He is crucified, not by Roman Law in is exclusivity, but by the mainstream religion of the day. Judaism.

Interesting that the main religion of the day had it's cold hands on the balls of the government, underneath the table. Sound familiar?

 

Yes the book also says Abraham lived to be 175 years old, his wife was 90 when she became pregnant and he was gonna cut his son's throat because God told him to. Ever get the impression this might just be a parable and Abraham might not have actually existed any more than Adam and Eve did and for that matter, the INCLUDED books of the Gospel were written 60 to 100 years after Christ's death by people that personally knew never or even met Christ. The ONLY contemporary account was the Gospel of Saint Thomas which NO Christian group accepts or includes in the tenets

 

So, according to our understanding of history, it seems as if it is people who want to kill in the name of their religion more than God confusing people to be murderous.

Don't get me started on the crusades...

 

That would CERTAINLY explain those poor Canaanite bastards that Moses' people wiped out in order to get their land.

 

 

 

I don't exclude scientific explanation as being invalid. In matter of fact, I have supported this very perspective as seen in my prior posts.

 

Well since I'm right, I'll leave this one alone.

 

Agreed. Hence the reason I posted the verse from Romans chapter one in a prior post.

You seem to be more on track with Christianity than most Christians!

Christianity was never meant to be a "religion." That's what man has done to it.

 

and since you agree, I'll also leave THIS one alone.

 

Yep. No where are Christians told to know the mind of God. In matter of fact, it was Satan who told mankind that he could (Genesis 3: 4-5).

 

Well doesn't the whole concept of Satan kinda negate the idea of personal responsibility? This is where I have MORE problems with religion, in the original concept of Satan, he was sent by God to test man,. but see that's the whole thing ALL these ideas have evolved if you will. MOST of what we today believe were established Saint Augustine of Hippo-a misogynistic religious zealot who had led such a life of debauchery prior to finding religion that he then like an EX smoker who can't stand to be around anyone who smokes decided ANYTHING that was pleasurable was also evil and two works of fiction Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno, BOTH of who's writers had their own agenda.

 

And, of course we will create. Christianity tells us that we are created in the image of God, so there will be likened attributes within humans that reflects the capacity to create and recreate (on a smaller scale) fundamental principles of life, be it mechanical, biological, etc.

 

WE are created in the image of God, and that doesn't seem a bit arrogant to you? To quote Woody Allen. "Man was made in God's image. Do you really think God has red hair and glasses?"

 

The reason I use scripture is to provide an accurate perspective of a true Christian in debates around Christianity, as many Christians unfortunately use it to just pick and choose what works best for them. And this can often confuse someone who hasn't, or doesn't want to study this type of literature/history/culture in great detail. I understand that if one is not a Christian, it's just a book that Uncle Charles uses to yell at people on the side of the street with and-for some reason-has gold feathering on its pages. So, in an argumentative fashion, it is inconsequential if it is truth or if it is not, since my motives are not so much persuasion, but clarity of understanding.

 

Well, I gotta tell ya this, the most UN-Christian people in the world seem to often be Christians. I have respect for your beliefs and you seem to be one who follows what he believes. I was first a Congregationalist, then Catholic until line that line I discovered they were more interested in real estate than saving souls, actually, they were more interested in power than saving souls, truth be known, BUT I went to a Jesuit high school and through cadacism, Sunday School and have read and studied on my own including and ESPECIALLY the history of religion. The more I learned abut where it came from and what had proceeded it and what had be recycled and twisted to gain power by corrupt individuals, the more I realized that ALL organized religion is pretty much a crock if it helps people great and that's not to say there are no good concepts in there but there are just as many bad ones HOWEVER the more I learned about science the more I realized there must be a God.

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My point, guys, is this. Pick up Blaine Brown's Cinematography book. Open to page 51. Let's pick a sentence. How about this one: "The essential point is the focus as a storytelling tool." Page 128: "Visible light is only produced when an electron falls into the second shell of an atom." Page ix: "To a great extent the knowledge base of the cinematographer overlaps with the knowledge base of the director."

Now, if I'm an amateur cinematographer, will these three verses suffice for my understand of cinematography as a whole. Hardly. Are all of these sentences true? Yes. But it doesn't help me understand the context and application of what's being said. What would you suggest me do instead? Maybe read the whole thing. A couple of times, maybe. If I really want to know about it and be able to discuss it with you guys. Maybe take some classes. Maybe practice it...

I'm not suggesting that anyone here necessarily even wants to know more about Christianity. All I am saying is that, if you want to know what Anna Karenina is about, you read Anna Karenina! All of it.

 

What is your point exactly? You have to forgive me if I pass judgement on you, I've been known to think of everybody who speaks in favor of the bible as insane fundies, so... Nothing personal, okay?

Anyway, this is a standard response when you cite the weird, violent verses in the bible. "It's taken out of content!!!!" "You have to read the WHOLE book before you can say anything!!!!!". And again, I've been raised in a quasi-christian/half-atheist household and I've been dragged to church, and I've attended bibleschool, so I HAVE infact read the whole bible, albeit in fragments. There's no way that book is "divinely inspired", it's a f-king 2000 year old, mossy, fallible book that contains so many errors. Not only in zoology (it says that bats are birds), it says that the earth is resting on pillars and all other stuff that's written in an ignorant time.

And it's not even beautifully written, why not praise the Iliad (which is older), Ovids poetry, Platos Symposium or all these other old-ass texts that are heck of a lot better written than the bible.

 

Haha, back to your response, read those verses in the whole, you are free to post as much content as you wish from those passages that I posted. It won't change a thing. It's still the same hateful tirades, blatant fallacies, and weird contradictions; because the bible is a collection of stories and writings from different authors in different times and with different states of mind.

Why are we still extolling this book? Don't ask me, I have no idea. It's a faulty, old book with no profundity whatsoever. It's main character is some charismatic longhaired Charles Manson-esque psychopathic claiming to be the son of god; whose story is looked back upon from disparate accounts by his own blind followers that were probably power-hungry themselves.

 

And by the way, you seem to make a lot of statements about this Jesus-figure, like you have some insider-information. Are you talking about your spanish neighbor Jesus (pronounced Chesus)? Or this old, dead since 2000-years, supposed prophet called Jesus? Because there's no way you can claim to have any knowledge of him in any other way than from the biased, non-proven, accounts that stem from the bible.

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...The question is, why would someone believe in something that hasn't been proven over the last couple thousand years, instead of believing in the thing(s) that has been proven? At least, that's always been MY question.... There are facts, and there is speculation and theory. I personally always go with the facts.

I don't disagree with you, I personally believe that anything, any idea, any belief, any theory should be open to review, criticism and testing... if it's true, it'll stand.

 

I am fascinated though by the fact that this religious debate, like you said, just won't go away. You'd think if the issues were clear, we'd have sorted this one out a few thousand years ago. Instead, we've been to the moon and back, landed or crashed multi million dollar probes on various remote planets, launched the first known orbiting glue gun, figured out some fantastic new ways to kill each other and just as spectacular ways to repair each other.. but we are still arguing about this thing called God.

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I am fascinated though by the fact that this religious debate, like you said, just won't go away. You'd think if the issues were clear, we'd have sorted this one out a few thousand years ago. Instead, we've been to the moon and back, landed or crashed multi million dollar probes on various remote planets, launched the first known orbiting glue gun, figured out some fantastic new ways to kill each other and just as spectacular ways to repair each other.. but we are still arguing about this thing called God.

 

Daniel, I actually think it will go away. Because this debate HASN'T gone on for long, I mean, if you were an atheist in 1500 or 1600, you would just get killed. And even in the 1800 being atheist meant seclusion (i.e. Nietzsche) and being viewed as a hopeless eccentric.

I personally think that Christianity as a religion is going to be inherently absent in about 100 years, not to say that this will solve the world?s problems, there will pop up new ignorant dogmatic religions, and then they'll fade away with time. The worship of false prophets seems to be horrifyingly ubiquitous in the human psyche.

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Daniel, I actually think it will go away. Because this debate HASN'T gone on for long, I mean, if you were an atheist in 1500 or 1600, you would just get killed. And even in the 1800 being atheist meant seclusion (i.e. Nietzsche) and being viewed as a hopeless eccentric.

I personally think that Christianity as a religion is going to be inherently absent in about 100 years, not to say that this will solve the world?s problems, there will pop up new ignorant dogmatic religions, and then they'll fade away with time. The worship of false prophets seems to be horrifyingly ubiquitous in the human psyche.

 

While religions fall in and out of popularity (just ask Zoroaster), religion goes on. We have an unanswered, built-in capacity for something vague that is often addressed by religions. Call it Divine, God, Heaven or any out of the pile of names available in hundreds of languages and dialects. We (humans in general, that is) seem to be stuck with it.

 

How is it possible that we have a processing capability that we can't find applicable expression for? Are we on an evolutionary verge of multi-dimensional participation? Are we as a species struggling to suppress that potential? Could there be a competition for extra dimensional resources in the same way that Cro-Mags' competed with Neanders' for natural resources?

 

I don't have useful answers for this but the questions are delightful.

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While religions fall in and out of popularity (just ask Zoroaster), religion goes on. We have an unanswered, built-in capacity for something vague that is often addressed by religions. Call it Divine, God, Heaven or any out of the pile of names available in hundreds of languages and dialects. We (humans in general, that is) seem to be stuck with it.

 

Which is pretty much what I said, but I got confused and thought that Daniel was talking about Christianity, which will die out. But religion is inherent, we human beings will always attempt to explain what we can't understand, and people will take advantage of that. As always.

 

As for your questions, I wouldn't know how to answer that either. There will always be qualified speculations within the realm of science, and as far as Homo Sapiens Sapiens goes, some scientist claims that we're nowhere perfect or at the cusp of the evolutionary chain.

Indeed, some scientists make rather grim conclusions about how we probably will regress rather than progress in our next evolutionary step.

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I am fascinated though by the fact that this religious debate, like you said, just won't go away. You'd think if the issues were clear, we'd have sorted this one out a few thousand years ago.

Well, a lot of people HAVE figured it out. The reason the debate goes on is that some people still haven't. They disregard the facts and believe what they want. That in itself wouldn't be so bad, except that a lot of those people go around trying to convince everyone else that they're right and that they should join them. And the crazy part is, a lot of people DO join them. They join out of fear, or selfishness, or whatever, and they become another one of the herd. If there were no religion a lot of people would surely find something else to join.

figured out some fantastic new ways to kill each other and just as spectacular ways to repair each other.. but we are still arguing about this thing called God.

Yes, we've found new ways to kill each other, often in the name of God. And we've found new ways to repair ourselves, which is sometimes suppressed in the name of God.

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As for your questions, I wouldn't know how to answer that either. There will always be qualified speculations within the realm of science, and as far as Homo Sapiens Sapiens goes, some scientist claims that we're nowhere perfect or at the cusp of the evolutionary chain.

Indeed, some scientists make rather grim conclusions about how we probably will regress rather than progress in our next evolutionary step.

 

You mean a real life Planet of the Apes, I doubt it. If anything we'll genetically enhance ourselves till we are all perfectly healthy absolutely gorgeous with enormous strength......and other things.....as well as phenomenal intelligence and live to be over a 1000 OR immortal kinda like that Twilight Zone episode OR we will merge more and more with machines until we truly are cyborgs and God knows what that will mean, perhaps all machines will have organic components and it will be commonplace maybe we'll get an erection looking at a toaster who knows. The one thing for certain is regression, should it occur, will probably only happen to the poor so maybe we'll end up in the world of The Time Machine with former billionaires becoming the Eloy and the rest of us poor slobs de-evolving into the Morlocks, if that's our choices I rather hump the toaster. :rolleyes:

Edited by James Steven Beverly

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Which is pretty much what I said, but I got confused and thought that Daniel was talking about Christianity, which will die out. But religion is inherent, we human beings will always attempt to explain what we can't understand, and people will take advantage of that. As always.

 

As for your questions, I wouldn't know how to answer that either. There will always be qualified speculations within the realm of science, and as far as Homo Sapiens Sapiens goes, some scientist claims that we're nowhere perfect or at the cusp of the evolutionary chain.

Indeed, some scientists make rather grim conclusions about how we probably will regress rather than progress in our next evolutionary step.

 

It is quite common for separate camps of thought to maintain their separation and perceived supremacy. It is useful to keep in mind that all of these systems are efforts to convert the unknown into the known. Each system has its strengths. Science, limited by its own rules, can only address the observable (or measurable through instrumentation) and repeatable. It, then, has an irksome tendency to ignore anything not already recognized by itself. Religion addresses the unknown through personal experience (in varying degrees of validity) which is, then, codified by it own rules. That's great for each religion but troubling in that each religion maintains a limited viewpoint due to the needs of simplification for the sake of popularization. ID attempts to span religion and science by looking at the underlying structures of the unknown as an interlocking system of patterns. These structures are quite observable but not always available to experimentation or rigor.

 

The thing is, all of these different systems seem to be useful if you don't try to make any one of them the only system allowed. Of course, that's the first thing people do: Promote their system as the only one everyone should use. Humans are persistent in this tribal loyalty they apply to their preferred thought system.

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I absolutely loathe religions!

They prey on the weak and they are full of hypocrisy.

 

I believe in god, as we call it, but not as some ideology created by a religion.

 

For me "god" is nature and it's with nature that I enjoy working!

After all we spend our days trying to replicate it, don't we?!

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I am also fascinated by how the CAMERA FOR PORN thread unfolded. Why is it that people have such strong positions about topics that have the least verifiability. Do you think that maybe it is because the unknown is that terrifying? Or is it something else that accounts for the severity of reactions?

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It's part of the "civil discourse" in the porn-case I would think. I mean, it's titties and stuff... all exposed... not okay.

I myself used to lambaste porn before I stopped being a hypocrite and discovered it's utility. Now I praise it! Well, maybe not praise it, but I see it's potential.

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I dig science, like an armchair scientist kind of thing. I'm really fascinated that science works for us because we have the capacity to see and test the world through scientific, mental processes. It all makes sense, you know, science and scientific mentality. What's even more fascinating is why we have a mental capacity for God when there's so little that can be classified as evidence for a God. It doesn't matter how impractical God is, we are chock full of assumptions about his existence, both denial and affirmation. People all over the planet are doing this in their own ways. It's not just some localized fluke. It's every where.

 

The same goes for our rather easy ability to fly. I don't mean flapping our arms type of flying. We do need a machine to do the physics part. But why does nature need to endow us with the ability to process movement in terms of flight and translate that movement into hand and feet gestures that maintain the flight of that machine. That's freakin' weird, man! Isn't nature supposed to be ruthlessly practical through evolution? Where does God and flight come into man's evolutionary sequence? If it's ID then what's the design sense of God or flight for man? If it's God, why make us obsess about something we can't perceive or verify? Why create us to fly but make us ground pounders.

 

Something about all this doesn't fit together. Like when you've just bought something from a salesman and you're just starting to have that revelation that maybe you got conned. Maybe, we need an even newer paradigm. Something that will totally blow our brains right out of our numb skulls.

 

Any takers willing to grapple with this capacity vs. manifestation question?

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Yes, we've found new ways to kill each other, often in the name of God. And we've found new ways to repair ourselves, which is sometimes suppressed in the name of God.

 

...and we've also found ways to kill each other in the name of Darwinism. Don't forget the Nazi's.

 

Not saying evolution is evil...but you can't (and shouldn't) imply believing in God is either.

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...and we've also found ways to kill each other in the name of Darwinism. Don't forget the Nazi's.

I've always equated Nazism with religion, since there were a lot of people blindly following a guy with a God complex. But I see what you're saying.

Not saying evolution is evil...but you can't (and shouldn't) imply believing in God is either.

I didn't mean to imply that believing in God is evil. I don't think it is. Maybe instead of this, " And we've found new ways to repair ourselves, which is sometimes suppressed in the name of God." I should have said this, " And we've found new ways to repair ourselves, which is sometimes suppressed in the name of religion." That statement was mostly in reference to stem cell research, or lack thereof.

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I've always equated Nazism with religion, since there were a lot of people blindly following a guy with a God complex. But I see what you're saying.

 

I didn't mean to imply that believing in God is evil. I don't think it is. Maybe instead of this, " And we've found new ways to repair ourselves, which is sometimes suppressed in the name of God." I should have said this, " And we've found new ways to repair ourselves, which is sometimes suppressed in the name of religion." That statement was mostly in reference to stem cell research, or lack thereof.

 

Gotcha :-)

 

I agree with your Nazism as a religion. I think of it like this: Darwinism is to Nazism as Theism is to Fanatical Fundamentalism. It's rational thought that leads to...well, ridiculous behavior :-) Too many people fail to distinguish the jump, however.

Edited by Adam Orton

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