New RED Dec. 3 Announcement

[Neil Duffy]

Reduser.net has the Dec. 3 announcement up. RED presents more details, offers higher frame rates (150 at 4k and 350 at 2k on the FF35), and a special price for a S35 package for existing customers.

 

What are your thoughts on this announcement?

[Carl Brighton]

Reduser.net has the Dec. 3 announcement up. RED presents more details, offers higher frame rates (150 at 4k and 350 at 2k on the FF35), and a special price for a S35 package for existing customers.

 

What are your thoughts on this announcement?

After spending the best part of an hour wading through the usual torrent of verbal rod-whalloping that unfortunately typifies that forum, I have to confess I'm really none the wiser as to what is actually being offered, at least, as an advance on their earlier announcement. I gave up when I realized th ethread was growing faster than I could read it. People keep talking about things that I can't see Jannard has offered, and his insistence on unnecessarily posting A2-sized pictures doesn't help.

 

The other question I hesitantly ask is: How much of this is real hardware, and how much is still vaporware?

 

I realize the blind hatred of all things RED expressed by most members of this forum ( :lol: ) is probably the reason for the apparent total lack of interest shown, but if one of the small number of REDUSER regulars blessed with an IQ slightly greater than their shoe size wants to come over here and explain things, I'm sure many people here would be greatful. (People who can't spell need not apply:-)

 

Thank you.

[Brian Drysdale]

I think there's a REDCODE RGB mentioned in the middle of a long thread, but it seems mostly to be the high frame bursts and keeping the RED ONE owners happy. I expect more details will drip out.

 

One thought regarding the RED 2/3" primes is the large leap from 8mm to 16mm focal lengths. They really need a 10mm - 12mm lens in the middle. I use 10mm a lot on the Canon W/A zoom: 8 mm being too wide.

 

Those people wanting a 3k FF35mm sensor camera for $3k will be disappointed.

[Gunleik Groven]

I don't know my shoenumber :)

 

BUT (and in no particular order...), here is some of what I figured...

1. The fixed lens Scarlet - clearly aiming at sony/panasonic/canon things have shown up with a price

2. RedCodeRGB-1080 scaled from full frame sensor. This was a previous anounced feature of the R1, and is still supposedly coming in a separate TV build.

3. Epic-X, an extremely nicely priced upgrade path for R1

4. Price for the sensor upgrade for R1

5. Lower compression rates for the new cams

6. Higher fps. Now up to 250 (for Epic)

7. Delayed delivery of most cams - as most expected anyway

8. Anyone bying the R1 before the first Epic is delivered, can use the upgrade path to Epic-X

 

What we didn't see (but I halfway expected from the drum roll in advance):

1. Testbed shots

2. New claims on DR for Monstro/Mysterium-X

3. Exacticies on bit depths (or maybe I have just been blind)

4. Workflow related announcements

 

To me it seems that the FF-Monstro Epic ( :) ) is the cam most consider the dream-cam

BUT as there are no hard release date on the Monstro-chip, I guess most will end up with Epic-X

 

That's my 2c...

 

Gunleik

[Gunleik Groven]

AND

9. Scarlet FF35 became cheaper, but lost its overcranking

10. Quite a few really want the higher DR Monstro chip, instead of the Mysterium-X offered in the R1 upgrade program. There isn't currently a S35 Epic/Monstro announced, which baffles quite a few.

11. Edit: For the high end Epic, the fps goes to 350

Edited December 3, 2008 by Gunleik Groven

[Neil Duffy]

I am ambivalent. I feel it is better than the Nov. 13 announcement. If you are renting RED cameras, like we are, you are going to need the FF35. My quick math (just an estimate as there are no prices for the accessories) is that you will have to spend at least $22,000 per camera to upgrade. That is if you can sell your EVF and LCD monitor for half what you paid for them.

 

I am curious what Canon and Nikon are going to do with their high end still cameras. The 1080p mode on the Canon 5D Mk II is a right step. Not quite there, but not too far away either.

 

I hope RED figures all these changes out. I think they are on the right direction. But the competition will be getting more fierce.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Neil Duffy

[Neil Duffy]

Speaking of competition, News.com has a front page article on Canon and the Nikon and how they are transforming digital photography by shooting HD video.

 

Any thoughts on these cameras.

[Matthew Rogers]

I am ambivalent. I feel it is better than the Nov. 13 announcement. If you are renting RED cameras, like we are, you are going to need the FF35. My quick math (just an estimate as there are no prices for the accessories) is that you will have to spend at least $22,000 per camera to upgrade. That is if you can sell your EVF and LCD monitor for half what you paid for them.

 

I am curious what Canon and Nikon are going to do with their high end still cameras. The 1080p mode on the Canon 5D Mk II is a right step. Not quite there, but not too far away either.

 

Speaking of competition, News.com has a front page article on Canon and the Nikon and how they are transforming digital photography by shooting HD video.

 

I don't think the FF35 is a must when renting the RED. The only two advantages I really see to it are possible higher DR and a full frame. By the time they actually ship the Epic, I'm not sure it's still going to have the X chip in it, but it might actually have the same chip as the FF35. Not everyone wants to shoot anamorphic considering the slower lenses and focus is more crucial.

 

Why would you sell your EVF and LCD? They are both supposed to work with all the future cameras. You might want to upgrade to the 1080P EVF, but that's all I can see.

 

Canon and Nikon are going to have to work hard to get their sensors to read faster. The clips that I've seen from both of those cameras look like jello. The other thing is, do you really want to shoot video with a DSLR? It's bad enough shooting with prosumer cameras handheld... I actually think it's kinda silly for RED to be making a "stills" camera that you can change into a motion picture camera. I'd really rather them just focus on the motion picture market and do an excellent job at it.

 

Matthew

[Stephen Williams]

10. Quite a few really want the higher DR Monstro chip, instead of the Mysterium-X offered in the R1 upgrade program. There isn't currently a S35 Epic/Monstro announced, which baffles quite a few.

 

Hi,

 

I guess an upgrade will be announced a few weeks after all the R1's have been upgraded to Epic.

 

Stephen

[Sam Wells]

Canon and Nikon are going to have to work hard to get their sensors to read faster.

Matthew

 

I'm not sure their best sensors can't do 24 fps. They haven't really pursued this seriously yet -- in what they're doing now they are essentially letting you record the 'video tap'

 

Really I think the issues are heat, buffering, DSP horsepower. And using mechanical shutter.

 

-Sam

[Matthew Rogers]

I'm not sure their best sensors can't do 24 fps. They haven't really pursued this seriously yet -- in what they're doing now they are essentially letting you record the 'video tap'

 

Really I think the issues are heat, buffering, DSP horsepower. And using mechanical shutter.

 

I didn't mean a higher frame rate. They both do 24P, I believe, already. The issue is the refresh rate of the sensor. With the slower refresh rate of their sensor, you get a lot of skew in the image. The sensor refresh rate is evidently something RED has worked hard on to try and get as fast as possible. We'll see if their next sensor has a faster speed.

 

I am pretty positive that the DSLR's will never have a shutter like a film camera. I just don't see that happening. The whole reason, I believe, behind this is that more consumers are moving up to DSLR's from their point and shoot and are missing the movie & live view mode. I doubt they are going to go after the filmmaking market.

 

Matthew

[Sam Wells]

But they typically do not skew in full frame-readout / mechanically shuttered mode.

 

-Sam

 

p.s. what DSLR does _not_ have a mechanical shutter ?

[Neil Duffy]

Why would you sell your EVF and LCD? They are both supposed to work with all the future cameras. You might want to upgrade to the 1080P EVF, but that's all I can see.

 

Matthew

 

I did not know I could upgrade to the 1080P EVF. I thought we had to sell ours, then then buy the new EVF. Same with the LCD. The two cameras we have are a full set up. We rent ours on consignment with a rental house. We should have returned our investment by the release of EPIC. But to rent ours, we need what the renters want. So what I am concerned about is future upgrades and investment.

 

With regard to the Canon, we bought the cameras for travel videos. Picture quality, especially light and colors, is essential to us. That is why I am intrigued by the Canon. The Canon is not there yet. But looking at some of the images, how far are they from the target. They make millions of these cameras, vs. thousands for RED. They make their own sensors. They make video cameras. They make great lenses.

 

Cost goes way down when you make millions vs. thousands. This may be why RED is producing still cameras and the Scarlet with the same sensors as the EPIC.

 

Canon is already there in this market. How hard can it be for them to improve their sensor and processing speed? RED has basically taken the high end video market. And RED is going straight into the still market. So where does this leave Canon and Nikon with their high end still cameras? There is a huge positive response in the digital still market to the new Canon's video capabilities. RED is right in their combo cameras. I think we will see more high end digital imaging hybrids. With better capabilities. All this leads to more competition. RED has to respond.

 

RED has done a lot to change the industry. And I expect they will respond effectively to the new competition.

[Ramesh Jai]

.......I'm sure many people here would be greatful. (People who can't spell need not apply:-)

 

Thank you.

 

HA HA HA! People who can't spell need not apply? You're so funny and I am GRATEFUL not GREATFUL that people like you are there looking out for people who can't spell. ;) Wink Wink.

[Scott Fritzshall]

I still don't understand why anyone other than consumers would want a camera that does both video and film. I think it's pretty absurd that anyone would use a Canon 5D to shoot a video other than for novelty purposes (not that absurdity makes it any less likely to happen), and I don't see a lot of photography pros ditching their Canons or Nikons for a RED.

[Matthew Rogers]

But they typically do not skew in full frame-readout / mechanically shuttered mode.

 

-Sam

 

p.s. what DSLR does _not_ have a mechanical shutter ?

 

Huh? I do not understand what you mean.

 

Funny, my wife's d70 & d80 do not have a shutter--unless the flip up mirror is considered the shutter (and it may be) But I can not see that mirror going up and down 24 times a second.

 

Matthew

[A. Whitehouse]

Canon and Nikon are going to have to work hard to get their sensors to read faster. The clips that I've seen from both of those cameras look like jello. The other thing is, do you really want to shoot video with a DSLR? It's bad enough shooting with prosumer cameras handheld... I actually think it's kinda silly for RED to be making a "stills" camera that you can change into a motion picture camera. I'd really rather them just focus on the motion picture market and do an excellent job at it.

 

Matthew

 

I agree with this and its often overlooked. There are few compelling reasons except price to choose a DSLR over other available solutions for motion pictures. Only in a low budget realm and perhaps in small production companies/individuals that require some sort of stills and motion versatility and can justify the expense of a decent stills with video capabilities. I find it compelling as a camera I might purchase but that's only because I'm in the market for a DSLR.

The ergonomics of the Red are bad enough already, the cannon looks like a nightmare.

Yes the mirror is the shutter in your wife's DSLR, no it doesn't go 24fps, but at the moment nor does the 5D (30 fps only?). I think the shutter locks open in these applications.

I would expect a lot of this to get delayed and change as others have said. Specs are easily achieved on paper. Anyone have a compelling reason to buy a 2/3 inch dslr?

[Gunleik Groven]

Hi,

 

I guess an upgrade will be announced a few weeks after all the R1's have been upgraded to Epic.

 

Stephen

 

Hm... I think not.

We could make a Gunleik/Stephen - like beer bet on it (I am in no situation to do a Jannard-like bet...)

 

The Monstro s-35mm sensor is (to me) the most logical upgrade for current R1 owners. Higher DR and a bit higher rez + full frame higher fps, would probably make me happy for years to come.

 

I really see the sexyness of the FF35, but I have no current need for it.

 

As mentioned before, RED has been extremely good at doing reasonable things on the stuff which is eventually delivered, I think the same thing will happen to this.

 

Mind you, I am not asking for an "X" package - though that would be nice.... :)

Just the option.

 

But I may be convinced otherwise.

 

Currently I think the eventual Monstro upgrade to R1 looks more interesting than the Epic-X

 

But then, again - that is possibly just me...

[Sam Wells]

D70 (and D80 ?) use a mechanical shutter for for clearing the chip in combination with electronic.

 

AFAIK my D3 is mechanical at all speeds; how they use this in conjunction with resets on the CMOS chip I don't know (it would appear to be a global shutter effectively).

 

The 'output live view as HD video' w/ the d90 and the new Canon is something else; obviously the mechanical shutter remains open in live view.

 

I don't think the mirror acts as a shutter in any sense on any DSLR.

 

-Sam

[Chris Kenny]

The pro stills photography and pro motion imaging markets will eventually merge, at least to some extent. Every year it gets easier and cheaper to build sensors that can operate at higher refresh rates, easier and cheaper to build electronics that can process lots of frames every second, and easier and cheaper to include storage with the capacity and bandwidth to support long recording times at high frame rates.

 

There's no technical reason why the pro photo cameras of 2012 (or sooner) shouldn't have compressed 4K+ raw shooting at 24 fps or higher as a standard feature. There might be market-based reasons why this capability isn't developed as much as it could be, but it's going to be hard for the traditional photo camera vendors to keep that up when Red is already clearly headed in this direction.

 

The chief difference between pro photo cameras and pro motion imaging cameras in the future might not be sensor or DSP or storage specs, but form factor, control layout, and the sort of accessories they're designed to talk to. Red's modular system seems to be intended to allow some of the same components to fit into either kind of use. It's possible other vendors will go a different route and build totally separate products, but the technical similarities should still create much more pricing parity between the motion and stills world. That is, the situation that (with the exception of Red) still largely exists today -- that a 4K+ pro photo camera is a $5K item while a 2K pro motion imaging camera is a $150K item -- is going to have to go out the window industry-wide, eventually, I think.

[David Mullen ASC]

While it may get easier and easier for a still camera to shoot 24 fps and higher, I don't see much convergence in the two industries -- still shooters will still buy a camera optimized for their work and movie shooters will buy cameras optimized for their work. There will be some exceptions of course, some smaller commercial production companies that may want one camera that does both.

 

Certainly in feature production, I don't see a need for my movie camera to also shoot stills separately except in rare cases. Whereas it's possible that a unit still photographer could end up having to shoulder the burden of also shooting behind-the-scenes EPK video on his "combo" still-video camera -- but the problem becomes getting good audio, not picture, with that scenario.

 

Not to say that I think the whole idea is wrong because some owner-operators may like the fact that they can take the same camera out to shoot stills, let's say on a location scout, as they will use for the final project. I can see that being useful.

[Chris Kenny]

Yeah, I'm not sure I really see the industries converging either. Just the products, and maybe just in terms of tech specs and price (i.e. unlike Red, other vendors may maintain totally distinct product lines even though there's major overlap in technical capabilities). But yeah, you're not going to see cinematographers taking jobs as still photographers or vice versa (except, of course, to the extent that this has always happened) just because of a convergence in technology.

 

These sort of "future of imaging technology" threads all eventually work their way around to the notion of using the computer industry for guidance. I think that's apt here as well. Consider that audio post guys and 3D modeling guys (to pick a couple of random examples) do totally different things, but they're using a lot of the same commodity hardware to do them. 15 years ago, that largely wasn't true at the high-end -- they used different high-priced specialized equipment. But as hardware becomes more capable, there's less need to specialize it for specific requirements.

[Scott Fritzshall]

But why would anyone- outside of consumers and some prosumers- want a camera that can do both? If I'm doing photography, it doesn't help me to be able to shoot video as well, and vice-versa. I've got my stills lenses, I've got my tripod and other accessories which are all specially designed for doing photography work, and I've got a workflow for dealing with the still images that I'm taking. It's fine that the imager can do video as well, but why is that a feature I would care about? Sure, the ability to do it every now and then as a once-off might be a neat little additional feature, but if I'm seriously using it for cinematography work, then I've got to spend thousands of dollars on all of the lenses and accessories and workflows for motion picture work, and once I've done that, I've still got a camera that I can only use for one thing at a time, so why not just buy a seperate camera at that point and be able to do both at once?

 

Convergence is great for consumer devices; I've got an iPod and a smartphone, so why not combine them in an iPhone and get both at the same time? I can stick just one device in my pocket that does everything. But I don't want my professional gear to do everything- I want it be completely specialized to what I need it for, and I want it to do that one thing very well. It's fine that RED is making cameras that can function as whatever you want it to, but my question is why, as a professional, would I care that the sensor I bought can be used in a billion configurations when I only need it for a handful? How is that a benefit to me?

[DJ Joofa]

I don't see a need for my movie camera to also shoot stills separately except in rare cases

 

David, I sincerely hope that your quote does not fall into the category of IBM's T. J. Watson's ("I think there is a world market for maybe five computers", though Wikipedia says there is scant evidence that he said that), and then there is this quote which I don't know the authenticity of ("Serious business machines don't need graphics").

 

I think you are accessing future's/tomorrows' users with the workflows that exist today -- though you might have accepted how technology will shape out in future, but perhaps you are not relenting on modification to the workflows that are in existence today.

[John Sprung]

D70 (and D80 ?) use a mechanical shutter for for clearing the chip in combination with electronic.

 

AFAIK my D3 is mechanical at all speeds; how they use this in conjunction with resets on the CMOS chip I don't know (it would appear to be a global shutter effectively).

 

The 'output live view as HD video' w/ the d90 and the new Canon is something else; obviously the mechanical shutter remains open in live view.

 

I don't think the mirror acts as a shutter in any sense on any DSLR.

 

-Sam

It should be pretty easy to find out for sure. Just take the lens off the DSLR, look in the hole, and push the button. You'll see whether there's a mechanical shutter, and in what modes and exposure times it operates.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.