lo to no budget, DOP needed for 35mm short

[Raphael Morris]

Hey all,

 

I'm a film producer with a few projects lined up starting with a short 12 page film script due to start shooting in just over a month - i.e. early march.

 

The film is called 'A Stolen Bike', it's a 35mm project about a couple of 17 year old kids. The film starts off at a naturalistic pace and then gradually moves on to a more reflective tone with a series of flashbacks and imaginary scenes.

 

The main character Mike is from a lower middle class background but is friends with Rich who is from an upperclass background. The two meet up before they make plans to go to school.

 

After the two characters meet up, the story gives way to an abrupt coming together of events and a plot twist at the end of the story.

 

It is a naturalistic drama on comeuppance and the strains of friendship arising from differences in wealth.

 

If interested in this project please email me at raphael.morris@gmail.com

 

I am also interested in finding a gaffer, grip or focus puller so please email also if interested.

 

Thanks.

[Paul Bruening]

Where are you and your productions located, please?

[Raphael Morris]

London, Islington.

[James Martin]

Could I ask why you're combining the words "35mm" and "no budget" ?

[Stephen Williams]

Could I ask why you're combining the words "35mm" and "no budget" ?

 

Hi,

 

The 2 lowest budget productions I did in the last 2 years (Sub $2500) were shot on 35mm.

 

Stephen

[James Martin]

That's amazing. Could I ask how you shoot 35mm for so little?

 

I know Fuji offer discounts on film itself to student productions, as do the telecine houses, but it still works out really expensive here...

 

Currently I am struggling to bring a friend's short in at under $4,000 for HD - weeklong rental, 15 - 20 minute finished product, likely 20:1 shooting ratio.

[Stephen Williams]

That's amazing. Could I ask how you shoot 35mm for so little?

 

I know Fuji offer discounts on film itself to student productions, as do the telecine houses, but it still works out really expensive here...

 

Currently I am struggling to bring a friend's short in at under $4,000 for HD - weeklong rental, 15 - 20 minute finished product, likely 20:1 shooting ratio.

 

Hi,

 

Film was 4 years old from Fuji & Free, I supplied the camera & lenses. Processing & Telecine was $2,000.

 

Stephen

[Paul Bruening]

London, Islington.

 

There's a lot of hungry and very competent folks in your town. Phil might know some good leads for you try. He has a sharp eye for skill.

[Phil Rhodes]

He also has a sharp eye for chancers.

 

If you can afford 35, you can afford 16 and pay the damned crew.

 

Asking people to work for free, even if you call it volunteering or internship or collaboration or any of the other weasel words, is illegal in the UK.

 

P

[Guest]

He also has a sharp eye for chancers.

 

If you can afford 35, you can afford 16 and pay the damned crew.

 

Asking people to work for free, even if you call it volunteering or internship or collaboration or any of the other weasel words, is illegal in the UK.

 

P

 

Does this mean you won't be putting in your resume Phil? :rolleyes:

 

R,

[James Steven Beverly]

Asking people to work for free, even if you call it volunteering or internship or collaboration or any of the other weasel words, is illegal in the UK.

 

P

 

Seriously??!! :blink: So if you're shooting a 12 minute short (12 pages in proper script form I'm just assuming that it is in proper script form and he didn't write an entire feature script on just 12 pages front and back= 12 minutes appox.) which because it is a short has virtually no chance of selling, then by LAW in England, you MUST pay your cast and crew? That is amazing. You English must have very rich film students over there. I'm not really sure that changing formats would save enough to HIRE an entire professional cast and crew though.

 

One other question, if by law you always have to hire a cast and crew, were do the people interested in learn how to be on a film crew come from, I mean do you hire someone without experience at the going grip rate and let him learn on your film or if he's a student, does the school have to pay him when he grips in class? What about an experienced cameraman who wants to move up to DP, do you pay him the going rate for a DP while he figures out the job, because any less would mean he's being underpaid so I guess he learns on your filmstock while being paid the same rate as a journeyman cinematographer. OR can you pay everyone a pound each for the shoot and not be in danger of being hauled off by a legion of Bobbies to the Hoosegow? Lighten up Phil, it's a 12 minute short not a Laurence of Arabia remake. How many days could someone possibly work for free on this thing 2 maybe 3? They'd run out of film after 4 so I doubt if anyone's being seriously exploited. I have film professional friend and MYSELF who have worked for free just to help out. It's no big deal PLUS if it's shot on 35, you might be able to use it on your reel to get REAL work and that may be payment enough. :rolleyes:

[James Martin]

Being a film student here, I have done a lot of work on stuff for "free". However, I believe there is a fine line between "students getting together and helping each other out" and "producer wanting to take advantage".

 

I'm not going to make any assumptions here whatsoever, as I don't know anything about the project, however I do know that if somebody is in your EMPLOY (and if you want them to be insured, then they must be), there is a minimum wage in the UK which must be paid. I don't think there is a law against people doing "favours" but it probably is to do with insurance etc etc...

 

Each case is different. I can work for free AND be insured IF it's "educational".

 

It does happen that people do work for which they SHOULD be paid, but they don't. The film industry is no different at all in that, I believe there are currently a huge number of RED owner/operators out there currently doing stuff for free just to build a showreel on their new camera (the idea there being they want to prove to people who are going to pay that it "works".)

 

In this case though, I don't know. I don't mind helping out on the shoot IF there's something in it for me. However, I know how much 35mm costs and I would hate the idea of having a budget totally blown on film and not good actors...

 

My 0.015 pence.

[Phil Rhodes]

UK law states that if you're working for someone, you must be paid at least minimum wage. It's not necessarily about being formally employed, you can be freelance, but you must be paid.

"Working" is interpreted broadly in this sense. If you're expected to turn up on time and undertake activity that's useful to someone, and keep doing that until going-home time, that's work. People constantly try and brush things off as "internships", but it doesn't wash. Neither does calling it "educational" unless it's organised via a recognised institute of education.

And, once again, it seems I'm going to have to explain to our American cousins just how awesomely bad the situation is here.

> Seriously??!!

Yes.

> So if you're shooting a 12 minute short .... has virtually no chance of selling, then by LAW in
> England, you MUST pay your cast and crew?

Yes. Minimum wage, if they'll stand it, but you have to pay people.

> You English must have very rich film students over there.

Not nearly as rich as there, I assure you. Not a tenth as rich as there.

> were do the people interested in learn how to be on a film crew come from,

From working illegally.

> I mean do you hire someone without experience at the going grip rate and let him learn on
> your film or if he's a student, does the school have to pay him when he grips in class?

If it's part of a recognised training course, no. This is not a film industry rule, it's general UK employment law - people get minimum wage, end of story.

> What about an experienced cameraman who wants to move up to DP, do you pay him the
> going rate for a DP while he figures out the job,

This is where the UK and US situations diverge. This very rarely happens. The sort of $500k to a millon, small but at least somewhat funded sort of production simply does not exist here. There is shooting people (think craigslist), then there is the next James Bond, and there is nothing inbetween.

The fact that this is being shot on 35 is highly unusual and he probably will get a crew who are willing to break the rules with him - it's enormously unusual to shoot 35 on independent shorts here. Probably doesn't happen more than a dozen times a year, countrywide. That is how utterly desperate the situation is.

> It's no big deal PLUS if it's shot on 35, you might be able to use it on your reel to get REAL
> work and that may be payment enough. :rolleyes:

And that's the clincher. First, it will be crap - mainly because he's shooting 35, which is 2-3 times more expensive to do in the UK, and he will be pouring every penny he's got through the gate and there'll be nothing left for any other department. Also, though, because this is the UK independent scene, and everything's crap. I've seen independent films made in the US and the standard of people you grab off craigslist is staggeringly high. Honestly, you make the UK scene look like a bunch of worthless amateurs, which by and large I'm afraid we are.

But second, there is no real work. There are a couple of dozen regularly working film DPs in the UK and that's far more than we need. There is no point in having a reel, there is nobody to show it to; the agents don't want you, and there would be no work for them to get you if they did.

So no, it's never payment enough. The only way you can make it worth my while to shoot something like that is to cross my palm with silver. It's tragic, but that's how we like it - otherwise, we wouldn't have room in UK movie theatres for treats from across the pond like this, which is currently being widely promoted.

P

[James Martin]

That's interesting, Phil. Apparently neither ARRI nor Panavision pay for their "internships".

 

It's very tough getting started here, I know many people who have worked/work for nothing to get started.

 

Any advice?

[Paul Bruening]

Given that the USA has been slowly and quietly shifting from a class society to a caste society we may, eventually, calculate our pay in lashes. I know I'm darn proud that my tax/bail-out monies are going to bonus corporate executives. It is their right after all. But, I devolve since I can't throw stones at exploitive producers.

[Guest]

I've made independent films in the US

 

Really Phil....did you get a US work permit for that? :lol:

 

R,

[Guest]

That's interesting, Phil. Apparently neither ARRI nor Panavision pay for their "internships".

 

It's very tough getting started here, I know many people who have worked/work for nothing to get started.

 

Any advice?

 

Well the number of film jobs on Mandy.com for the UK is way way higher than any other European country. So if you're in the UK it appears you're better off than France, Italy, or Germany.

 

The UK still offers a central location, large studios, and sorry rest of Europe...English speaking crews. Which is why Hollywood productions still choose Canada and the UK far more than any other foreign destination.

 

R,

[David Mullen ASC]

That's interesting, Phil. Apparently neither ARRI nor Panavision pay for their "internships".

 

Generally in the U.S., an internship on a film set has to be part of school work in order to get around minimum wage laws and insurance requirements, workers comp, etc. I don't know how an internship works at a rental house though, but again, it often comes under the moniker of "education" hence why you aren't being paid to get an education.

 

Whenever someone asks to work for me as an unpaid intern, I have to ask them if they are still a student at some film program that will cover their liability, etc. Now if they got paid, it would be different -- they would more likely fall under the "P.A." category, i.e. "camera P.A." versus a "camera intern".

[James Martin]

Yes, David, they call it an Education - hence they "pay" your education fees in return for not paying you a wage. The sheer number of people who want those places makes it somewhat pointless to moan about it though.

[Phil Rhodes]

Really Phil....did you get a US work permit for that?

 

OK, let me rephrase. In UK terms I've seen "independent shorts" made in the US. In American terms, they were one-day craigslist pieces of nothing funded out of pocket money.

 

Oh, international terminology.

 

P

[Edgar Dubrovskiy]

So, Phil, are websites like shootingpeople, talentcircle and mandy actually acting illegal by offering 'collaborations' - working for expenses?

[Chris Keth]

Yes, David, they call it an Education - hence they "pay" your education fees in return for not paying you a wage. The sheer number of people who want those places makes it somewhat pointless to moan about it though.

 

I've never heard of any kind of internship offered by arri and panavision's is paid. It's a job where you are offered a lot of educational opportunity.

[Phil Rhodes]

So, Phil, are websites like shootingpeople, talentcircle and mandy actually acting illegal by offering 'collaborations' - working for expenses?

 

Invariably. Or rather, the people putting out the ads are.

 

See this board, among others.

 

P

[XiaoSu Han]

wow phil, you sure are negative. hope not everybody in the uk is like you, otherwise it's going to be a very very dark future... and i am sure not everybody is like you :)

 

ps: did you ever think about why there is only "amateur crap shooting" and james bond and nothing inbetween with your mindset?

Edited February 1, 2009 by XiaoSu Han

[James Martin]

I've never heard of any kind of internship offered by arri and panavision's is paid. It's a job where you are offered a lot of educational opportunity.

 

ARRI do a very brief "work experience" style thing - it's quite short.

 

As regards to Panavision, I had been told by someone who is close to them that it was unpaid. I'm glad to hear that is not the case though.

 

 

wow phil, you sure are negative. hope not everybody in the uk is like you, otherwise it's going to be a very very dark future... and i am sure not everybody is like you smile.gif

 

ps: did you ever think about why there is only "amateur crap shooting" and james bond and nothing inbetween with your mindset?

 

Most of us are quite nice. Really. There is also a lot between amateur crap and James Bond here. I should know, I see it being made every day.