Hurt by Weak Film Sales, Kodak Trims Work Force

Adrian Sierkowski · April 6, 2009

I believe some folks made their own film-making machine on here about 2 yrs ago?

Of course you can make it yourself. Photographers used to make their own still plates waay back in the day.

As for the economics of it. Film works on economics of scale, I would assume, so that it's only really "cheap" because you make a lot of it. When making a little bit of it, I would assume it would be much more expensive I would wager.

BUT, i would also say if you did make film, people would buy it.

Matthew Buick · April 6, 2009

There is a company that still makes 1/4" and 1/2" reel to reel audiotape. They bought the equipment from BASF I think.

Anyways, my question is: let's say Kodak and Fuji stop making motion picture film next week.

Would it be possible for a small niche company to buy the equipment and continue to make the stock.... or is it so complex that you would need a major company doing it?

Well, I don't profess to be any expert, but I think if motion picture film became an extinct product next week then so much support and talent would be rallied to the cause of bringing it back into being that any small start up comany would be small for much longer, the ASC and others like them would absolutely throw themselves into the reins, so to speak.

Best!

John Sprung · April 6, 2009

Would it be possible for a small niche company to buy the equipment and continue to make the stock.... or is it so complex that you would need a major company doing it?

It depends on what you mean by small. I'm guessing something in the high tens to low hundreds of millions of dollars in capital. Way bigger than a garage shop, way smaller than Kodak or Fuji. One question is to what extent they'd be able to do R&D and improve the product.

-- J.S.

Terry Mester · April 7, 2009

Film is made on coating machines by spraying the Emulsion on the plastic Base Sheets which are generally 5 feet wide by 5000 feet long (nearly a mile). I don't think it takes more than an hour to coat one Sheet (then rolled up into the Master Roll). It does require a specific Emulsion Formula for each Film involving the gelatin, Halide Crystal and Dye Coupler mixture for that Film and Speed, and then the specific Developer Dye for the developing process. This of course requires qualified competent people, and it has to be done in the dark! They also have to inspect the Sheet (in the dark) for defects with IR Light. A company wouldn't reveal their expenses, but I don't think the cost of a Master Roll is even $100,000. The more they produce the cheaper everything is. A Master Roll produces 215 Reels (1000 feet) of 35mm Film. I don't know what the going price is for a 1000' 35mm Reel, but multiply that by 215 to get the take Kodak makes on a Master Roll. It's not so much the expense of making Film, but it is fundamental to have skilled technicians. The R&D has already been done over the past 100 years.

K Borowski · April 7, 2009

To steal an expression from the Bible, it'd be easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle (which actually meant a very tiny gate that allowed good-laden camels to enter a fortress in ancient times).

You'd basically need to have at least a dozen chemists and a metallurgist or polymer scientist, then a few physicists who specialize in spectral analysis thrown in for good measure.

Now do you see where the money comes in?

I'm not trying to be negative. Sure, you could probably make a film like 5222 quite easily. But there is no way in hell that it can be done, on a hobbyist basis, in color.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Karl Borowski

Michael Kubaszak · April 7, 2009

Film is made on coating machines by spraying the Emulsion on the plastic Base Sheets which are generally 5 feet wide by 5000 feet long (nearly a mile). I don't think it takes more than an hour to coat one Sheet (then rolled up into the Master Roll). It does require a specific Emulsion Formula for each Film involving the gelatin, Halide Crystal and Dye Coupler mixture for that Film and Speed, and then the specific Developer Dye for the developing process. This of course requires qualified competent people, and it has to be done in the dark! They also have to inspect the Sheet (in the dark) for defects with IR Light. A company wouldn't reveal their expenses, but I don't think the cost of a Master Roll is even $100,000. The more they produce the cheaper everything is. A Master Roll produces 215 Reels (1000 feet) of 35mm Film. I don't know what the going price is for a 1000' 35mm Reel, but multiply that by 215 to get the take Kodak makes on a Master Roll. It's not so much the expense of making Film, but it is fundamental to have skilled technicians. The R&D has already been done over the past 100 years.

35mm 1000 footers are about $650. So $140,085 is what they make off of a master sheet, by your figures.

Mark Dunn · April 7, 2009

I don't think the cost of a Master Roll is even $100,000. The more they produce the cheaper everything is. A Master Roll produces 215 Reels (1000 feet) of 35mm Film. I don't know what the going price is for a 1000' 35mm Reel, but multiply that by 215 to get the take Kodak makes on a Master Roll.

Odd that you know the cost of a master roll but not the price of 1000' of 35mm. stock, but never mind.

It's around $600, so assuming you're right and it costs them about $450, that's hardly gouging.

Annie Wengenroth · April 7, 2009

I dunno man. I know that MAYBE (sarcastic voice) this is due to our poop economy...but part of me (the cynical, negative part) can't help seeing this as a sign of things to come. Which makes me sad.

On the other hand, I think that people will do what they need to do, to keep their art alive. Artists can sometimes be irrational, after all. Karl, go find me a freakin' camel and a needle...then we'll talk!

I'm starting to think there WILL be smaller companies who decide, in 10-20 years, to devote their time, energy, and money to keeping film alive. They'll have a machine shop to reproduce the camera parts that aren't being made anymore, and people to put them together...they'll have an archiving department...I think something like this NEEDS to happen in this industry, if only to preserve our history. All the energy right now is being focused on preparing for a digital future, but how do we future-proof the work we make now (I mean, I have sound design files from school that I can't open because they were compressed in Pro Tools with outdated codecs...and that was only 4 years ago), and how do we save our past so that the people who ARE curious and interested, can see it?

Anecdote time! :D

This past winter when I was visiting my parents in Massachusetts, my dad had rescued a 16mm projector and some home movies from the Needham dump, which is a part of the suburbs where everything you own is essentially disposable and as soon as the next big one comes out, you toss out what you have. So my dad just grabs the stuff he sees, that's still good. (Yes, it runs in the family) Some of it is amazing, like this projector, and some of it is weird, like creepy-looking plastic dinosaurs which arrived in my Christmas stocking. (...you had to be there) At any rate, the projector works. So we hung a sheet up in the living room and in typical Wengenroth style, spent the rest of the evening watching other peoples' home movies. And, yeah. It was really strange. I kept wondering what had happened to these people and if they'd ever transferred any of this stuff, or if they just threw it out. I thought about YouTube and how easy it is now, to broadcast your life...and how even 5 years ago, it was just not something you did. And here's this footage from the late 60's that someone just dumped off in a plastic bag, with this projector that just needed a little oiling and it was fine.

Unfortunately, the higher up the chain you go, the comfier the chair, the bigger the salary, the nicer the suit, and the more likely those people are to just say, "Oh, look at that. No one's buying film anymore. Bye guys!" Even I know that's the reality, and I'm definitely sentimental when it comes to film. On the other hand, for every corporation calling the shots on what's next, there will always be people around who just so happen to have the drive, time, and money, to work outside of this, and create something worth looking at, or listening to. It won't be what it was. It already isn't. But it'll be SOMETHING.

Uh, at least I hope so.

Michael Kubaszak · April 7, 2009

I dunno man. I know that MAYBE (sarcastic voice) this is due to our poop economy...but part of me (the cynical, negative part) can't help seeing this as a sign of things to come. Which makes me sad.

On the other hand, I think that people will do what they need to do, to keep their art alive. Artists can sometimes be irrational, after all. Karl, go find me a freakin' camel and a needle...then we'll talk!

I'm starting to think there WILL be smaller companies who decide, in 10-20 years, to devote their time, energy, and money to keeping film alive. They'll have a machine shop to reproduce the camera parts that aren't being made anymore, and people to put them together...they'll have an archiving department...I think something like this NEEDS to happen in this industry, if only to preserve our history. All the energy right now is being focused on preparing for a digital future, but how do we future-proof the work we make now (I mean, I have sound design files from school that I can't open because they were compressed in Pro Tools with outdated codecs...and that was only 4 years ago), and how do we save our past so that the people who ARE curious and interested, can see it?

Anecdote time! :D

This past winter when I was visiting my parents in Massachusetts, my dad had rescued a 16mm projector and some home movies from the Needham dump, which is a part of the suburbs where everything you own is essentially disposable and as soon as the next big one comes out, you toss out what you have. So my dad just grabs the stuff he sees, that's still good. (Yes, it runs in the family) Some of it is amazing, like this projector, and some of it is weird, like creepy-looking plastic dinosaurs which arrived in my Christmas stocking. (...you had to be there) At any rate, the projector works. So we hung a sheet up in the living room and in typical Wengenroth style, spent the rest of the evening watching other peoples' home movies. And, yeah. It was really strange. I kept wondering what had happened to these people and if they'd ever transferred any of this stuff, or if they just threw it out. I thought about YouTube and how easy it is now, to broadcast your life...and how even 5 years ago, it was just not something you did. And here's this footage from the late 60's that someone just dumped off in a plastic bag, with this projector that just needed a little oiling and it was fine.

Unfortunately, the higher up the chain you go, the comfier the chair, the bigger the salary, the nicer the suit, and the more likely those people are to just say, "Oh, look at that. No one's buying film anymore. Bye guys!" Even I know that's the reality, and I'm definitely sentimental when it comes to film. On the other hand, for every corporation calling the shots on what's next, there will always be people around who just so happen to have the drive, time, and money, to work outside of this, and create something worth looking at, or listening to. It won't be what it was. It already isn't. But it'll be SOMETHING.

Uh, at least I hope so.