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RED...


Jim Jannard

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Jim,

 

You deserve a lot of credit for truly changing the world of film, and for being approachable to users and acknowledging mistakes. It's all very impressive.

 

That said, my beef with Red, marketing style aside, is what seems to be a conscious effort to ignore Avid. FWIU, the SDK you've released doesn't support sound. So while Adobe Premiere users can edit 4K video, Avid DS, Symphony and MC users can't even edit 16-bit audio.

 

The person who owns an $80K Avid DS or Symphony suite has to import sound separately and sync it with a clapper and waveform. This person isn't exactly going to be high on Red. Neither is the MC user who sees proprietary Red support as yet another reason for FCP to eat into Avid's dwindling market share.

 

So the bad feelings can run pretty deep. If Canon, Sony, etc. come up with a reasonable alternative to Red, Avid users have already been given ample motivation to go that route, IMHO.

 

That said, you've done many things that are quite remarkable and deserve much credit. And I imagine you can't launch an endeavor like Red and try to make everyone happy... or listen to too many experts.

 

Peter... Avid now has what they need from us and are working on a complete solution. It is in everyone's best interests to provide as many RED options from as many companies as possible. What didn't make sense was to open up the keys to the kingdom before we were finished with our own code. Things will roll out from here on pretty nicely. There are many RED workflow presentations scheduled for NAB... I think if you look back in history, it took all new formats time to build workflows around them. And we have only been shipping for one and a half years.

 

Best. Jim

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Ram, IIRC the RED is not 4:4:4, FWIW.

 

Neither is it 4:2:2 nor 4:2:0 nor 3:1:1. Those are all luminance - color difference sampling structures. 4:4:4 is usually interpeted to mean R G B rather than Y Cb Cr, but it also implies a complete set of three color samples per location, i.e., pixels.

 

Red is none of the above. True, it's sort of 4:4:4-ish in that it doesn't have a luminance equation and matrix. But it's also sort of 4:2:0-ish in that it uses the Bayer sampling structure, with one red and one blue location sample for every two green locations. (Look to the left of this text, there should be four little colored squares showing the Bayer layout.) Red compresses and records raw Bayer chip data. X:X:X notation isn't applicable to it. Later on in post, you can convert it to video and put it on tape in any of those forms.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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... I think if you look back in history, it took all new formats time to build workflows around them.

 

Perhaps, but in this case, it seems to be a little more chaotic than usual, especially at the head end. We've had to cobble together on-location transfer stations for each show, and no two of them are using the same equipment and procedures.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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Adrian:

IIRC??

FWIW??

LOL!! :lol:

 

I got lost on that too....

 

Just us Americans trying to make our english even further from English english.;)

 

IIRC="if I recall correctly"

FWIW="for what it's worth"

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Yep, Sorry Ram, I spend so much time on this damned computer on occasion that I flow into the truncations. One of these days I'll even "LOL" in reality.

John,

While I get that, surely there has to be some rubric of measing what's coming off of the sensor in 4:x:x? I mean it is recording a ratio of R:G:B in it's photosites, and then extrapolating that data later on in its algorithms; but still, I would think (and I am in no way an expert thereon) that you'd want to understand it's sampling structure to best get at what post 4:x:x suits it best?

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On that note, I can't say I'm too impressed with this new long-winded

"Cinematography Forums > Cameras and Formats > HD > Red" folder system tht was recently adopted here.

Judging by the number of Red-specific questions that now seem to scattered through this forum's folders, I think a lot of new visitors are unaware that there even is a "Red" folder.

 

 

Good point. It took a while to find this forum when they changed it from being listed on the front page. I wish it would be listed more clearly in the Forums section.

Edited by Neil Duffy
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While I get that, surely there has to be some rubric of measing what's coming off of the sensor in 4:x:x? I mean it is recording a ratio of R:G:B in it's photosites, and then extrapolating that data later on in its algorithms; but still, I would think (and I am in no way an expert thereon) that you'd want to understand it's sampling structure to best get at what post 4:x:x suits it best?

 

The 4:x:x thing comes from way far back in the distant past of analog component video. It has to do with the relationship between analog component and the composite NTSC and PAL standards. What it means is that luminance is sampled at four times the frequency of the composite system's color subcarrier, while the color differences are sampled at x times the frequency of the composite video color subcarrier. This is one damn weird dinosaur, it just won't die.

 

As for what's the best way to work with Red stuff in post, I'd say go 4:4:4 RGB if you're going to do any green screen, or 4:2:0 if you need to make optimum use of limited bandwidth or storage. Without those constraints, it doesn't much matter which one you pick. Other implementation issues will likely be more significant. Make some tests and look at them. Go with what looks best to you.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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