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A possibly dumb question


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I believe they typically use "Turkey in the Straw", which is in the public domain.

 

(As this usually plays on an endless loop, the driver must want to shoot himself by the end of the shift.)

 

This particular truck must have a very long loop. I know I've heard PD stuff like "Red River Valley" and "Battle Hymn of the Republic". But I've also heard "Love is Blue", "Your Cheatin' Heart", "Carousel Waltz", etc. As for wanting to shot himself, the distortion and instrumentation of these arrangements beat the selection..... ;-)

 

BTW, Richard, you might also ask ASCAP about ice cream trucks.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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Not mentioned yet in this thread is that the images in the demo reel are often copyrighted as well. Legally, we shouldn't have demo reels at all.

 

Try getting written permission from a studio to make a demo reel of their clips. Not gonna happen.

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BTW, Richard, you might also ask ASCAP about ice cream trucks.

-- J.S.

 

Will do! But I thought the question was demo reels, unless I missed some thing?

 

I will also be asking about school dances, playing music to make plants grow, and playing music in your car with the windows down so that some one else can hear it.

 

R,

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This particular truck must have a very long loop. I know I've heard PD stuff like "Red River Valley" and "Battle Hymn of the Republic". But I've also heard "Love is Blue", "Your Cheatin' Heart", "Carousel Waltz", etc. As for wanting to shot himself, the distortion and instrumentation of these arrangements beat the selection..... ;-)

 

BTW, Richard, you might also ask ASCAP about ice cream trucks.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

 

The ice cream trucks in my neighborhood are now playing a "ping" that sounds like submarine sonar. It took me months to figure out where this noise came from!

 

Someone must have turned em in to Disney for using "It's a Small World".

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The ice cream trucks in my neighborhood are now playing a "ping" that sounds like submarine sonar.

 

We've got one of those, too. Unfortunately a depth charge is one of the few things I don't have in the garage.... ;-)

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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Not mentioned yet in this thread is that the images in the demo reel are often copyrighted as well. Legally, we shouldn't have demo reels at all.

 

Try getting written permission from a studio to make a demo reel of their clips. Not gonna happen.

 

I mentioned it on the previous page. I don't think anyone wants to touch that one. :o

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Try getting written permission from a studio to make a demo reel of their clips. Not gonna happen.

 

Actually we do routinely give permission to DP's, actors, etc. to use clips of the work they've done for us in demo reels. It goes thru legal and generates paperwork now, but 5 years ago and more, it was just done verbally. I send the masters to the facility where they were made, and the person making the demo reel gets to dub them or use them there. It's theoretically on their nickel, but often the vendors do freebies for them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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While we are on the topic of, "it's illegal but you won't get sued."

 

Just think of all the big restaurant chains that won't let their employees sing Happy Birthday to patrons celebrating a birthday. They all sing some silly birthday jingle that they have made up. None of them want to pay for the rights to sing Happy Birthday in a public place, and none of them want to take the risk of being sued either.

 

Think I'm nuts? Read this:

 

http://www.unhappybirthday.com/

 

Of course this part of the website will make most of you laugh out loud:

 

"If you have seen someone singing Happy Birthday in a restaurant, a park, or at a school, you should tell ASCAP so that they can arrange for a license. If you are an offender, you should apologize and offer to pay whatever is due — a nickel, a quarter, a dollar — whatever ASCAP demands."

 

No I didn't make that up. And yes they are doing a damn good job of making fun of the whole issue :D

 

R,

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Whatever they tell you (and they do excel at making threats), they're still not going to waste their time suing some guy over his personal demo reel. (Richard, are you really going to bug these guys just to settle a forum argument?) If your demo reel was for sale, that would be a different story. You can't use licensed music without agreement for any commercial purposes. However, as I mentioned before, there are even better reasons for not using copywritten music on a demo reel than fear of being sued.

 

I can't think of any reason why he shouldn't ask them. Organizations like that want to answer those questions. Plus, a lot of people want to know the answer, including myself. I still see some people guessing the law, and then basing conclusions off of their guesses.

 

Legally, it's probaby illegal, but I'm curious to find out if that's correct.

 

Practically, people get away with this stuff all of the time, so it comes down to a personal morality choice, and whether you mind breaking the law. I wouldn't personally do it, but that's just me.

Edited by Daniel Hueque
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I can't think of any reason why he shouldn't ask them.

 

Probably because of the answer. It's like telling a building inspector that you just put in a water heater and then asking him if you should have gotten a permit.

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I don't think I've ever seen a demo reel that didn't have a copyrighted song on it. Like ever, except for the rare handful of people who ask their friends to compose something for them. And I've never heard of anyone looking down on reels as a result of this, nor have I ever heard of anyone getting in any kind of trouble for it. It's definitely against the law technically, but there's a 0% chance that you're going to get in trouble for it. Not just people- many VFX companies set their reels to copyrighted songs as well. If you've got ethical qualms about it, though, then by all means don't do it.

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I'm sorry but I'll sing happy birthday where and when I please.

 

Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. ~Mark Twain

 

Evan W.

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And one more that's perhaps a bit more to the point:

 

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. ~Robert A. Heinlein

 

Evan W.

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So now using a copyrighted song on your demo reel is a patriotic and/or moral dilemma? It's neither. Next thing you know we'll have to plug our ears when someone is singing a copyrighted song. People will no longer be able to sing copyrighted music at auditions. Still only one person has even responded to the question of using the picture without written consent of the owners of the photographed material.

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Also something that comes to my mind would be the issue of disuse. Even if ASCAP says to you on Monday that you will need to get licensing for their music (which they are legally obligated to say), doesn't mean they would win the case because they haven't been filing suites against people who have been doing this.

 

In the 60's Rickenbacker, Fender and Gibson all had sued boutique guitar making companies for ripping off the designs for their instruments. Gibson and Rickenbacker won their lawsuits which is why Univox and other offenders had to stop making guitars that resembled theirs. Even on ebay if you find one of these lawsuit era guitars, if they mention the instrument its modeled after, such as a Les Paul, the item will get pulled because they have to protect their name.

 

Fender, on the other hand, lost their lawsuit because boutique shops had been modeling their guitars for over 10 years beforehand and not been sued. They lost their case and that's why now every new guitar company has a model that looks like a Strat.

 

Now I realize their is a difference between Trademarking and Licensing, but the law is pretty clear that you need to defend your product consistently.

 

On the other hand the PROs are defending their licensing agreements in other forms so I'm sure if even the disuse defense would be upheld, just figured I'd throw that point into the rink of debate.

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Now I realize their is a difference between Trademarking and Licensing, but the law is pretty clear that you need to defend your product consistently.

 

Trademarks and Copyright are different beasts. Trademarks last as long as they are used and maintained. Copyrights last until they expire - which I think is typically life of author plus 70 years.

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If you are really worried you can always use music from forward thinking artists who use creative commons.

 

For example NIN has lots of music released under creative commons, and Ghosts has LOTS of different kinds of top notch instrumentals that all make great reel music.

 

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/us/

 

http://ghosts.nin.com/main/home

(you can get the first 9 tracks for free, the full album for 10 bucks which includes an instant full mp3 download AND a 2 CD set mailed express)

Edited by Tom Hall
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Ok I spoke with ASCAP, yes you do need permission to use copyrighted music on a demo reel. Makes absolutely no difference if you are giving the reel away for free or not. I spoke with the lady who works in the clearance dept.

 

If you want to talk to them their number is: 1-800-952-7227.

 

As to whether or not you'll get caught and prosecuted, etc etc etc, who knows?

 

R,

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Not mentioned yet in this thread is that the images in the demo reel are often copyrighted as well. Legally, we shouldn't have demo reels at all.

 

Try getting written permission from a studio to make a demo reel of their clips. Not gonna happen.

That's a really good point. I've been denied requests for footage from producers before, but when they hired me, they wanted to see my reel! A reel is something most of us must have in order to get work. If I have to use images and music illegally in order to be able to make a living, then I'm going to do it. I would prefer not to break any laws or use someone else's work if they don't want me to, but in this case I don't have much choice. If an artist (actor, musician, director, DP, etc) asked me not to use their image or music on my reel I would remove it.

If someone used my images on their reel to help showcase their music, I would be cool with that. Of course, if they started telling people that they operated or shot those images I would have a problem, but it doesn't hurt me (in the majority of cases) to have my images shown to support someone else's work. I'm not losing anything because they are using those images.

 

BTW, just to play devils advocate, ASCAP is NOT a law making organization. According to their website, "ASCAP protects the rights of its members by licensing and distributing royalties for the non-dramatic public performances of their copyrighted works." ASCAP does not make the law, they just try to make sure their artists get paid when someone uses their work. Just because they say using someone's music on your reel is against the law doesn't make it so. They would have to file a case and get a judgment in order to prove that it's illegal. Maybe they have sued someone for using an artists work on their reel, I don't know, but I can't find any evidence of this.

 

In my opinion there is a difference between something being "right or wrong" and "legal or illegal". Plenty of things that are technically legal aren't right, and plenty of things that are technically illegal aren't wrong. I won't post a bunch of examples because it would cause a severe topic change I think, but one of the things that may be illegal but not wrong, in my opinion, is this issue.

 

If you don't feel right about using someone's music or image without their permission, then don't do it. But be aware that you may have a hard time ever putting together a complete reel.

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That's a really good point. I've been denied requests for footage from producers before, but when they hired me, they wanted to see my reel! A reel is something most of us must have in order to get work. If I have to use images and music illegally in order to be able to make a living, then I'm going to do it. I would prefer not to break any laws or use someone else's work if they don't want me to, but in this case I don't have much choice.

Very true. For my upcoming reel, I'm probably going to rip the DVD when it comes out in order to get my shots. I could get them from my employer, but it takes forever and I might not even bother. I should go over my contract when I get home, but I don't think there's anything in there that says I have the right to use any footage for my reel- everything I've been doing for the last 6 months belongs to Universal. My company probably has something in their contract that says they can use the shots on their reel, and maybe something that says that their employees can use it, but I really don't even know. If the studios had their ways, no one would be able to make reels to begin with.

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Ok I spoke with ASCAP, yes you do need permission to use copyrighted music on a demo reel. Makes absolutely no difference if you are giving the reel away for free or not. I spoke with the lady who works in the clearance dept.

 

If you'd asked her I'm sure she'd tell you that you need to pay a license fee to even post this conversation. Don't put to much weight behind things like this when it comes to grey area legal territory.

 

Until someone has been successfully sued for using music in a reel, there isn't really any solid answer.

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Until someone has been successfully sued for using music in a reel, there isn't really any solid answer.

 

I think her answer was pretty solid personally. Each person can do as they will.

 

Will I lose sleep if a DOP uses a Beatles song for his reel and Michael Jackson is out a few bucks, no.

 

R,

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