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Does the lab for processing really matter?


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I'm aware there are a lot of steps in getting the 16mm medium onto a computer to edit/distribute which is totally out of the filmmaker's hands.

 

Processing is one of those things, and it is not something i want to chance.

 

I usually send all my film out to AlphaCine in Seattle, but i shot some film for school here in Chicago and they have it sent out to AtroLab locally.

 

Am i being ridiculous to think that one lab might perform better processing than the other?

 

 

Thanks-

Nicholas

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I'd definitely say yes it does matter. i have seen some film come back with a "sparkle" i.e. the negative has many small scratches all over the film, not noticeable to a general audience but to a trained eye very noticeable. Also, Astro is ridiculously expensive! .23 cents a foot! if you're shooting 16mm, check out deluxe in NY. .11 cents a foot including telecine prep.

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I would say labs are a lot like post houses. Sure they can almost all do the work.. but you need to find the one you want to work with regularly. I generally use Technicolor NY or, more often, NFL Films out in NJ.

Some Labs have proprietary techniques, and some won't/cant do reversal etc, but for neg, it's all roughly the same, minus the physical problems which can come up at certain labs already mentioned.

Find one which is affordable (.11/ft seems a bit cheap, is that a student price? IIRC it's normally in the 20/ft for non discounted) and stick with 'em. Get 'em to know you. You'll be thankful when you do.

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I would say labs are a lot like post houses. Sure they can almost all do the work.. but you need to find the one you want to work with regularly. I generally use Technicolor NY or, more often, NFL Films out in NJ.

Some Labs have proprietary techniques, and some won't/cant do reversal etc, but for neg, it's all roughly the same, minus the physical problems which can come up at certain labs already mentioned.

Find one which is affordable (.11/ft seems a bit cheap, is that a student price? IIRC it's normally in the 20/ft for non discounted) and stick with 'em. Get 'em to know you. You'll be thankful when you do.

 

 

It is Adrian but they said they would give it indie films as well. Deluxe in LA does 35mm for .08 cents a foot.

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Yeah, negative processing is a standardized process, but when you consider the dust, scratches, synches, pressure fog, stretch, and other physical damage that labs can and do make due to not following proper procedure, you'll want to make sure to find the best.

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We haven't even started to talk about chemical control, pH of the baths, CD3, sodium bromide levels etc in the developer (CD3 levels influence grain and sensitivity).

Are proper chemical analysis carried out frequently?

 

Running a proper negative processing operation is a neverending story and demands utmost dedication from everyone concerned. These days, if there is one small piece of dirt on a 20 minute reel, the customer will complain and say the print is 'dirty', forgetting that the other 31999 frames of that reel were 'clean'.

 

For a good DoP, a good lab is just as important as a good lens, good stock, good exposure meter, good crew, etc, etc. A good lab cannot save a bad lens and a good lens cannot save a bad lab.

 

End of rant.

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I don't think it matters, as long as you're only considering from the pool of established, respected labs and not some guy in his basement doing it on the side or something.

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I agree with Dirk (well I guess I would, wouldn't I).

 

Lab processing tends to be taken for granted as long as it's OK. People overlook the amount of work and expertise that underlies that OK result.

 

That said, most professional labs will produce good results most of the time. What you need to consider is what your lab will do if anything does go wrong: that is what makes the difference. What happens if there is a scratch? (theirs or yours). Suppose the courier loses your negative. If the lab makes a print (or a transfer) will they colour correct it well; will they follow your special instructions, or grade out the filter you carefully put in :ph34r: .

 

Does the lab deal with your sort of customer, or are they better suited to studio features?

 

As for price, you usually get what you pay for, though a competitive market might make a difference. You might get .08 cents a foot in LA, but Chigago is a different market. In any case, does a discounted price give you overnight turnaround or do you wait longer; is there a bigger surcharge for push processing; and again, what sort of follow-up will you get when there's a problem?

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For develop only, any of the reasonable quality labs will do pretty much the same job. In a city with lots of labs, they all know each other, and even farm work out to each other when they have unexpected down time or too much stuff to do. This has resulted in people shooting side by side tests to send to different labs, and getting back negatives that both went thru the exact same machine.

 

If you're shooting in a different city than where you usually work, and there's a reasonable quality lab there, doing a develop only before you ship the film is safer than taking a chance on putting latent images on an airplane. If you can afford telecine or work print to see what you've got, so much the better.

 

BTW, how about DuArt in New York? In the old days, they were sort of the family shop that everybody loved.

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

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I equate it to eating out. If you want good food, go to a good restaurant. You don't always have to go Morton's because you can eat food just as good somewhere else for less money. You don't want to go to McDonald's because it's cheap. Something bad always seems to happen when you do.

Edited by Tom Jensen
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I'm not so fond of this. There is a difference. You don't consume like at a restaurant. On the contrary, it is about work, about co-operation with the lab. One party exposes stock, the other is engaged to again work on it, totally specialised work in the dark. Chemistry, physics, a craft known since 1826 when Niépce produced the first héliogravures.

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I'm not so fond of this. There is a difference. You don't consume like at a restaurant. On the contrary, it is about work, about co-operation with the lab. One party exposes stock, the other is engaged to again work on it, totally specialised work in the dark. Chemistry, physics, a craft known since 1826 when Niépce produced the first héliogravures.

 

And where was Niépce from? France. And the French are all about what? Food.

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When I was in film school, my camera professor would shoot a locked off shot in a controlled situation and send 100' (35mm) to each of the five labs in NYC at that time. I was amazed how different those dailies looked. We would project the prints and the negative. I was involved in these tests for three years and 2 labs in town seemed to be the consistent "winners". A couple labs seemed inconsistent, which I thought it was a function of changing chemistry less often or they were out of sync with our tests. The most expensive lab was not always the best. Good luck, JT

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Is there truth to the idea that some labs will treat black & white 16mm poorly, while doing top notch work on color negative?

 

Someone brought up this point in another thread, here I think. The idea was that B&W was a small portion of their business and general considered amateur/film school dabbling.

 

Let's say I have some exposed BW negative that is very precious, any suggestions on a lab that will treat it just as well as color?

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Topher, I would say a good lab will treat all neg equally, whether or not it's B&W or even a student film.

 

The main problem is that you need a continuous supply of work to run through a processing machine for the process to be stable. If you are only using your B/W process occasionally it is difficult to keep it on aim and the process will not be as good as one in constant use.

 

In addition most labs would only run their B/W when thay had finished their colour neg and if it was a particularly heavy night they might not get round to the B/W. No lab can afford to keep staff standing around waiting for some rolls of B/W to come in.

 

If you can find a lab that runs B/W regularly or specialises in B/W then you will probably get the best result, particularly if you are in a rush.

 

If the lab only runs occasionally and you are bugging them for a quick turnround then there might be a tempation to say 'we better run it even though the bath is not 100% on aim just to stop them bugging us.' Hopefully this would not happen in a good lab but you should be aware of it.

Brian

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A couple labs seemed inconsistent, which I thought it was a function of changing chemistry less often or they were out of sync with our tests.

No No No No No. No.

 

Labs do not "change chemistry" more often or less often. They run replenisher solutions all the time they are processing, so that the chemicals in the solution remain in a constant equilibrium. If you "change chemistry" and put in a brand new developer solution, you will get more inconsistency, as a fresh unused developer solution wouldn't have the same level of byproducts as it would after a few thousand feet of neg has gone through.

 

The biggest variable that I experienced between labs when this sort of comparision was done would be the printer lights. Different labs would use different standard lights, or if the tests were graded (timed) you had the grader's (timer's) subjective judgement as a variable. The only sure way to eliminate this is to shoot a grey card and have the lab print it to a certain specified density.

 

But, once again, it isn't the standard process that should be the variable these days, it's the quality of service. On an overnight process only order, you should expect the same from most labs - especially if they are accredited with Kodak Imagecare, which ensures that processing, chemistry, and QC procedures are maintained to a hight standard.

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No No No No No. No.

 

Labs do not "change chemistry" more often or less often. They run replenisher solutions all the time they are processing, so that the chemicals in the solution remain in a constant equilibrium. If you "change chemistry" and put in a brand new developer solution, you will get more inconsistency, as a fresh unused developer solution wouldn't have the same level of byproducts as it would after a few thousand feet of neg has gone through.

Yes and No.

 

What is it that makes fresh developing baths inconsistent? It's the state of dissolution of the different chemicals. There are some variables that influence solution of a salt or an organic compound like the water alone or the order in which the components are added. It may take hours, days, weeks until some ingredients become totally dissolved on molecular level. At the same time we encounter decay, oxidation. How to keep the oxigen away from the bath? Throw in some sulphite. Well, it ain't that simple. Still some oxigen will penetrate my preparation.

 

There we are at the base for this discussion. Yes, the lab really matters when you understand laboratory, labour as the very core of it. It is work to clean a processing machine, to clean an equipment like what I use. The attitude of so many people today, you know: I press the button, the device will do the rest, is so decadent (and that's not a toothpaste). We'll get nowhere with this attitude. So to the initial asker: Yes, and it matters in every streak of life!

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