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Which camera should i buy?


Rodolpho de Barros

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Super 8 has never been and never will be like video - EVER. This statement is just wrong. I'll agree with you that the format is not perfect - but that is the nature of the beast and what draws some people to the format. It is limited - but if you can harness the limitations of the format and get the most out of the benefits - than you will have a rewarding experience.

 

Did you not read any of my follow-up posts?

 

Yes, I would say that the cartridge is enough of a hassle that, as a learning format, one of the other 8mm formats would be a better beginner's choice.

 

I'd argue that, since you eventually have to learn how to load anyway, why not learn from the start?

 

As far as misinterpreting what I said about S8 being like video, if you want to read it the way you did, go for it!

 

 

I love people who can read my mind over the internet. . .

 

 

All I was trying to say is that the cameras are more fragile, less long-lived, and the cartridges have issues.

 

The manual S8 cameras are sometimes hard to find so I recommended R8 DR8, Single8, or DS8 instead.

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Did you not read any of my follow-up posts?

 

Yes, I would say that the cartridge is enough of a hassle that, as a learning format, one of the other 8mm formats would be a better beginner's choice.

 

I'd argue that, since you eventually have to learn how to load anyway, why not learn from the start?

 

As far as misinterpreting what I said about S8 being like video, if you want to read it the way you did, go for it!

 

 

I love people who can read my mind over the internet. . .

 

 

All I was trying to say is that the cameras are more fragile, less long-lived, and the cartridges have issues.

 

The manual S8 cameras are sometimes hard to find so I recommended R8 DR8, Single8, or DS8 instead.

 

the question of the original post is what super 8 camera to buy to start with not what format to choose to start with..

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the question of the original post is what super 8 camera to buy to start with not what format to choose to start with..

 

Yeah, but the guy clearly doesn't know that there were other 8mm formats; his including a R8 camera as an option illustrates that fact. . .

 

Again, I don't have a problem with the Super8 film format, just with the 50-foot (15.24m) cartridge design, and a proliferation of amateurish designs.

 

There are some good S8 cameras out there, just that they are rare, expensive, few, and far between :-p

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I really appreciate that you guys have discussed my doubts.

but the more i search more i get doubts....lol

i have seen some incredibles S8 like Beaulieu and Nizo.

I don't know if i wanna buy a canon after seeing some beaulieu.

does someone have experience with nizo, beaulieu and nizo that can say something about them, which one is better?

 

If one of you use messenger, please add me rdlph@hotmail.com

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One is certain: no stern loader. You'll have trouble checking and cleaning a stern loading camera.

 

I dismantled a Bolex 155 Macrozoom yesterday. That's a bull of a camera, you could hammer in nails with it but not film seriously. Since the handgrip is not detachable as an integral part housing motor and diaphragm control it will always swing a little on the tripod.

 

Same with Beaulieu 4008 or so, that stupid handgrip is in the way. Please consider that point. A movie camera must be so built that it perfectly rests on a stand. Swivel it about you can always.

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Did you not read any of my follow-up posts?

Yes Karl, All of them.

 

Yes, I would say that the cartridge is enough of a hassle that, as a learning format, one of the other 8mm formats would be a better beginner's choice.

 

I'd argue that, since you eventually have to learn how to load anyway, why not learn from the start?

 

That's fine if that is your opinion - but we'll have to agree to disagree. The beauty of the cartridge format is that is is quick and simple - this can be an advantage in many shooting situations. There is no reason to say that if you use a cartridge that you can't grasp the concept of loading film. You are still using good cinematography practice and theory - why should it matter how the film is loaded if the way that you use it is same - expose it to light.

 

 

As far as misinterpreting what I said about S8 being like video, if you want to read it the way you did, go for it!

 

 

I love people who can read my mind over the internet. . .

 

You said, and I quote "Super 8 is too much like video for me.." please explain the correct reading of your statement! If you don't want people to misread or indeed try 'reading your mind over the internet' then you need to be clear with your statements when posting. I wasn't attempting to read your mind - simply respondiong to the absurd statement that super 8 is too much like video - wether you meant it asthetic, physical or otherwise.

 

All I was trying to say is that the cameras are more fragile, less long-lived, and the cartridges have issues.

 

Again - I have to disagree with your here - not all cartridges have issues - and there are some very rugged super 8 cameras out there that offer manual override. Like I said before - you use the format and the cameras within their limitations - it's not hard to be creative and just think a little more if you have a more automatic camera.

 

The manual S8 cameras are sometimes hard to find so I recommended R8 DR8, Single8, or DS8 instead.

 

Your recommendations are valid for the format as they are based on knowledge and good sense - however your non recommendation from the Super 8 format would appear to be neither. I'm not having a personal poke at you Karl - or your standing behind regular 8mm as a format and its benefits. Nor am I taking the opposite side - I believe that ALL formats can happily co-exsit and each have there own merits. You make the choice for what you want to achieve and if Super 8 is what you want then you should be allowed to use it.

 

No buy me a beer and explain what you meant about Super 8 being like video! :)

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Which are the mainly differences between a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII w/ Schneider 1.8/6-66mm to Beaulieu 6008 PRO Super 8 w/ Angénieux Lens (8X8 Angénieux Lens, 8-64mm, Opens at f/1.9, Smooth zooming and focusing)?

 

Specially to the lens, are they very differents? Which one would be better?

 

Considering the differences, is worth to pay less and buy a 4008 ZMII or pay more and have a 6008 PRO?

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No buy me a beer and explain what you meant about Super 8 being like video! :)

 

If I had a way of sending you money, I would buy you a beer, as long as it was American, strong, and 12 U.S. fl. oz. (355-mL)worth! U.S. and Imperial pints, if available would also suffice, but I digress. . .

 

Didn't notice you were in Sweden. There are subtle differences between my understanding of the languages and yours probably, so let's chalk it up to that :D

 

I'm not writing S8 off altogether, more saying that there is a sea of bad S8 cameras out there, with only a few small islands of good ones.

 

By comparison, almost all DR8 and DS8 cameras I have seen are solid working tools that have long useful lives ahead of them. S8 cameras are really starting to show their age at this point.

 

The only thing I meant about S8 being like "video" were the looks of the cameras and their controls, not the actual results the cameras generate.

 

S8 is most certainly film, more-so than any other format save DR8, really since it's such a small gauge and has to hold up under such close inspection.

 

My arguments against S8 stem more from its use as a learning tool for those that will eventually move on to 16- and 35mm production, as these are, for better or for worse, where most professional work is originated. So the more manual the camera (as DR8 cameras all tend to be and S8 cameras tend not to be), the better a learning tool I feel it is.

 

I have fancy S8 cameras with fancy features, but I tend to override and set them all manually, as I feel a lot of the "ease of use" features are ultimately more harm than good (people having the filter drop into place when they don't need it, things like that).

 

Or with my DV camcorder, I always override all these different menus, which takes about 10 minutes of work to set it to manual exposure, manual focus.

 

In the case of those of us that want to use these cameras professionally (whereas they were usually designed for amatur home movie use for the most part), the "bells and whistles" of many S8 cameras are a setback, not a benefit.

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Which are the mainly differences between a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII w/ Schneider 1.8/6-66mm to Beaulieu 6008 PRO Super 8 w/ Angénieux Lens (8X8 Angénieux Lens, 8-64mm, Opens at f/1.9, Smooth zooming and focusing)?

 

Specially to the lens, are they very differents? Which one would be better?

 

Considering the differences, is worth to pay less and buy a 4008 ZMII or pay more and have a 6008 PRO?

 

It depends how you plan to use it. I used to have a 4008 ZMII with the Angenieux 8-64mm lens.

If I was going to get another Beaulieu it would definitely be a 6008 or 7008 because of the shutter angle; the 4008 has an effective shutter angle of about 100 degrees meaning at 24/25fps you have a shutter speed of about 1/90th of a second. This gives footage shot with the 4008 a specific look and significantly cuts down the amount of light reaching the film. The 6008/7008 both IIRC have shutter speeds at 24/25fps of about 1/60th.

 

The other thing to consider is the lens the Schneider 6-66mm is said to be one of the sharpest lenses in the super 8 format (if not the sharpest). Both lenses (6-66mm and 8-64mm) have macro focussing throughout the zoom range.

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I'd stay away from all the Beaulieus. The electrics and the guilliotine mirror are a misdevelopment.

They may work for some time but will definetly let you down if the camera isn't serviced properly.

I strongly recommend a Scoopic double super 8 which is basically a 16mm cam. Best i've used out of maybe 30 different cameras.

There's a real pressure plate and those battery packs take AA NIMH Mignon cells and not a totally superflous and expensive

special battery pack like all the Beaulieus.

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It depends how you plan to use it. I used to have a 4008 ZMII with the Angenieux 8-64mm lens.

If I was going to get another Beaulieu it would definitely be a 6008 or 7008 because of the shutter angle; the 4008 has an effective shutter angle of about 100 degrees meaning at 24/25fps you have a shutter speed of about 1/90th of a second. This gives footage shot with the 4008 a specific look and significantly cuts down the amount of light reaching the film. The 6008/7008 both IIRC have shutter speeds at 24/25fps of about 1/60th.

 

The other thing to consider is the lens the Schneider 6-66mm is said to be one of the sharpest lenses in the super 8 format (if not the sharpest). Both lenses (6-66mm and 8-64mm) have macro focussing throughout the zoom range.

 

Sorry Jacob,

but what did you mean with "to be one of the sharpest lenses in the super 8 format (if not the sharpest)". Explan it to me, please!

Thanks

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I'd stay away from all the Beaulieus. The electrics and the guilliotine mirror are a misdevelopment.

They may work for some time but will definetly let you down if the camera isn't serviced properly.

I strongly recommend a Scoopic double super 8 which is basically a 16mm cam. Best i've used out of maybe 30 different cameras.

There's a real pressure plate and those battery packs take AA NIMH Mignon cells and not a totally superflous and expensive

special battery pack like all the Beaulieus.

 

But oliver,

DS8 filmes are very difficult to find.

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You can always order Double Super 8 film (and regular 8) film from here:

 

http://www.zerelda.com/internationalfilm/i...tionalfilm.html

 

 

You can also order DS8 direct from Kodak but you'll have a substantial minimum order. They just pull it off the line before slitting it as all their Super 8 film starts as Double Super 8 then package in 16mm boxes.

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Sorry Jacob,

but what did you mean with "to be one of the sharpest lenses in the super 8 format (if not the sharpest)". Explan it to me, please!

Thanks

 

Simply that the Schneider 6-66mm is arguably the best lens ever made for the super 8 format.

 

See:Michael Lehnert camera test report

 

I've never shot DS8 so I can't comment, but as far as Super 8 goes I can recommend the beaulieus (batteries are not that big of an issue especially with the 6008/7008 which can take rechargeable AA batteries), and the canon 1014XL-S.

To be honest this discussion comes up time and time again and everyone has their personal preference as to which camera they like (or as in this case which 8mm format). Front runners for the Super 8 cartridge system are usually: Leicina Special, Beaulieu 4008, Canon 1014XL-S/814XL-S, Nizo Professional, Nizo 6080, etc etc.

 

Good luck.

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I'd stay away from all the Beaulieus. The electrics and the guilliotine mirror are a misdevelopment.

They may work for some time but will definetly let you down if the camera isn't serviced properly.

I strongly recommend a Scoopic double super 8 which is basically a 16mm cam. Best i've used out of maybe 30 different cameras.

There's a real pressure plate and those battery packs take AA NIMH Mignon cells and not a totally superflous and expensive

special battery pack like all the Beaulieus.

 

I use ds-8 but i would avoid the scoopic, the lens is ancient, a leicina special or beaulieu with 6-66, 8-64, or 6-80 lens blows the optics on the scoopic away. I know as i've owned 3 seperates canon ds-8 cameras. A converted bolex with switar primes is imo, the only route to opt for in the ds-8 format...

 

The 6-66 is the best zoom lens ever made for the super 8 format, and the leicina 10mm cinegon ( from what i've read ) was the most corrected lens ever made for the super 8 format.

 

DS-8 films are available from Wittner, including k40....

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Guessing the Canon DS8 uses the original Scoopic lens... the Scoopics from later models (M, MN, MS) are actually quite good. I've had several colorists ask what lens I was using on some Scoopic MS 16mm transfers. Super sharp in the middle f-stop range and very good color too.

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To be more clear, which one would the best buy?

a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII w/ Schneider 1.8/6-66mm or a Beaulieu 6008 PRO Super 8 with Angénieux Lens 8-64mm?

 

just one thing keeps me with a doubt, the shutter angle of them.

 

It depends how you plan to use it. I used to have a 4008 ZMII with the Angenieux 8-64mm lens.

If I was going to get another Beaulieu it would definitely be a 6008 or 7008 because of the shutter angle; the 4008 has an effective shutter angle of about 100 degrees meaning at 24/25fps you have a shutter speed of about 1/90th of a second. This gives footage shot with the 4008 a specific look and significantly cuts down the amount of light reaching the film. The 6008/7008 both IIRC have shutter speeds at 24/25fps of about 1/60th.

 

The other thing to consider is the lens the Schneider 6-66mm is said to be one of the sharpest lenses in the super 8 format (if not the sharpest). Both lenses (6-66mm and 8-64mm) have macro focussing throughout the zoom range.

 

just this can't let me buy the 4008 ZMII.....would it be really important to not buying the one? this can make difference and how?

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To be more clear, which one would the best buy?

a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII w/ Schneider 1.8/6-66mm or a Beaulieu 6008 PRO Super 8 with Angénieux Lens 8-64mm?

just one thing keeps me with a doubt, the shutter angle of them.

just this can't let me buy the 4008 ZMII.....would it be really important to not buying the one? this can make difference and how?

 

Buy the 6008 with the 6-66mm or the 6-80mm (the 8-64mm is okay but not as good).

The 6008 was not originally sold with the 8-64mm? Where are you buying from?

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The canon ds-8 used the same fitted to one of the early silent 814s..

I do not like the 1/87th shutter speed on the 4008, mechanically its better than the 6008/7008. The 6008/7008 range used the schneider 6-70 or beaulieu 7-56 lens also available was a 6-90.. The 6-66 can be used on the 6008/7008, but without the lens control unit, (i'm not sure about the 8-64) meaning you have no power zoom or auto iris. A lens control unit can be fitted to the 6-80. I would choose the 6008/7008, but you will have to search for a 6-66 and 6-80 and have the lens adjusted to the camera. If you can live with the 1/87th shutter and you plan to shoot a great deal of handheld stuff, the 4008 is ( imo ) a better camera for handhel used.. Bset set up is 4008 zm11 and 6-66, put cash aside for a complete camera overhaul...

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The best first camera: the Kodak M2

 

The second best first camera: any of the black Elmo sound models.

 

Benefits of both: cheap, many around all over the place, well made and reliable.

 

I would never recommend a Beaulieu or a Nizo for a newcomer, or anything over about $50-- which eliminates most Canons. Both the Kodak and the Elmos will give really great results.

 

I'm telling you-- the Kodak M2 is an absolute first choice. A sleeper. And about $5.

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hello

a cheap nizo wouldnt be bad for a beginner. Something like a nizo S560. It has some nice features like single frames, Intervalometer, fades, timed exposure, understands most asa films, manual diaphragms. With this camera you could get stoked to super 8 trying lots of things and it givs nice results. Check art leal's

http://vimeo.com/user341948

he has some footage with S560

 

the only drawback is the batteries they have for the lightmeter. but not a big deal if you start using the camera.

 

you can get s560 in ebay.de reaally cheap.

 

Good luck! to summarize buy a camera to start shooting and in time you will get the good one!!

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I don't get why you are recommending cheap, crummy cameras to him. Why? How will that help him? Your assumption is that he should start ultra-cheap? Will he learn anything that he couldn't from a good camera and lens?

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