The End of NTSC

[Keith Walters]

Take a dictionary into McDonalds, look up 'civilized' then have a look around.

Obviously you have never been to a McCafe, which surprise, surprise actually originated in this country

Please don't assume your Yankee Philistinism is tolerated everywhere. Excellence always has a place, even in a McDonalds, or an analog NTSC production studio B)

[Keith Walters]

Thanks for adding noise to your own thread :unsure:

Well the point of "my own thread" viz: to get some first-hand information on how the general public in the USA reacted to the loss of analog TV transmissions, appears to have been buried in an avalanche of noise anyway.

[David Rakoczy]

Of course if you shot on the RED, you can pull any format you like out of it :lol:

(I was waiting for one of the usual suspects to tendentiously point this out, but none of them did).

 

 

Then again if you shoot on reasonably slow Super 35 film you can also pull any format you like out of it...

Not that this will help much once the Philistine cable companies get hold of it...

 

 

Same is true of any negative... it is not what you 'pull' out of it.. it is 'what are you framing for'.... I think you missed the point in the 16x9 - 4x3 discussion.

 

Karl, Here are some requirements:

 

WFTV ABC- Orlando - HD tapes/ files with the following specs: DVCproHD tape or Data File. 720p, 59.94 fps. Graphics should be in 4x 3 safe title

 

WESH NBC - Orlando - HD tapes/ files with the following specs: DVCproHD tape or Data File. 720p, 59.94 fps. Due to the preponderance of 4:3 viewing, all Content should be “Center-Cut Safe”. WESH/WKCF is not responsible for non center-cut safe Content”.

 

... now they don't mean just Graphics... but anything of importance needs to be in 4x3 :blink: So even though you could go to the outer brown lines... you can't... you have to scrunch evrything in the middle... This is what I use...glad we are HD now.. yippeeeee <_<

 

[K Borowski]

Well the point of "my own thread" viz: to get some first-hand information on how the general public in the USA reacted to the loss of analog TV transmissions, appears to have been buried in an avalanche of noise anyway.

 

I answered that right off the bat: It's a non-issue since 99% (not an exaggeration) of the population switched to cable back in the '80s.

 

I'm sure a lot of senile poeple or people who think cable was a big conspiracy are pissed.

 

A lot of them weren't able to wrap their fingers around cable, and therefore aren't able to wrap their fingers around DTV.

 

 

Honestly, it is pretty amazing that you are trying to use a thread on digital television broadcast to make fun of a digital movie camera :)

Edited June 24, 2009 by Karl Borowski

[K Borowski]

Obviously you have never been to a McCafe, which surprise, surprise actually originated in this country

Please don't assume your Yankee Philistinism is tolerated everywhere. Excellence always has a place, even in a McDonalds, or an analog NTSC production studio B)

 

So McDonalds, an American American company, as American as greed and Gordon Gecko, is excellent because it has the McCafe, an Australian invention?

 

Do they pay a premium rate of pay to have educated, cultured Australians work in McDonalds restaurants down under too?

 

Do your McDonalds steam their French fries, and have healthy menu entres?

 

 

Or is it just the vegemite toppings that make it "civilised?" :rolleyes:

[David Rakoczy]

I answered that right off the bat: It's a non-issue since 99% (not an exaggeration) of the population switched to cable back in the '80s.

 

btw Karl... Cable has less than 50% penetration.. in most DMAs it is only 35 - 45% of households.... and even those numbers are dropping.

[K Borowski]

OK, according to an article I just dug up, it is a "mere" 83% not using antennas anymore.

 

Or are you talking about the increasing prevalence of dish TV?

 

To me, for this article, they're both the same thing, i.e. not antenna.

 

 

I highly doubt, though, that even 17% of homes are really antenna. I am sure I heard lower figures, most of them quoting less than 10%. I'm sure 17% of homes maybe had TVs that *weren't hooked up to cable*, but I highly doubt that one in five households had only antenna to rely on.

[David Rakoczy]

Dish has overtaken Cable.. Cable has less than 50% penetration. So when you advertise on Cable, you are missing at least half your potential audience.

[K Borowski]

That's a good point David.

 

How does that all work anyway?

 

 

I know there are national commercials and local spots (you can usually spot the local ones here because they are so poorly done), but what would you say the breakdown is?

 

And it will vary with each different provider for the local spot, or just for cable in general vs. dish in general?

 

For instance, I am pretty sure I have seen non-national commercials for Dish on cable, so I am pretty sure that they are somehow bound to show it by a bigger group.

[David Rakoczy]

Simple.. if you want to run on Cable just know that you are only reaching about 45% of households... if you run on Broadcast (ABC ,NBC, CBS, FOX etc.. you will hit 100% penetration as both Cable and Dish carry those.

 

There are basically three sizes... Local, Regional and National... most of my work is Regional (hitting 1 million plus homes) and runs on Broadcast Stations.

 

Also, generally speaking the larger the area you are hitting the less compression is used... a local spot (may) be as little as 3mb :o .. I always argue for at least 8mb.. 11+ is more Regional/ National... that is a big reason the larger National ads look so good... well.. number one they ARE beautiful to begin with... but they go through much less compression than what ends up being transmitted from (say) your local Cable Station.

[Scott Larson]

But very few HD set top boxes are available because the manufactures want their product to be eligible for the coupon.

But they are available although not many new ones are left. I bought new one a few months ago for my five year old HDTV and some stores still have them. If not, check eBay or other places for a Samsung DTB-H260F or other ATSC set top boxes with component and HDMI outputs. Used ones are getting cheaper as more people replace their old HDTVs with ones that have built-in tuners.

[David Mullen ASC]

But they are available although not many new ones are left. I bought new one a few months ago for my five year old HDTV and some stores still have them. If not, check eBay or other places for a Samsung DTB-H260F or other ATSC set top boxes with component and HDMI outputs. Used ones are getting cheaper as more people replace their old HDTVs with ones that have built-in tuners.

 

Yes, I have a digital tuner box from last year that I bought for my 2006-ish Sharp Aquos to watch the local HDTV channels. Now I have a 47" Sony Bravia with a built-in tuner and gave the Sharp away, but I still have the box. And I don't even watch the local HD channels over the air now because I just got FIOS and ordered every HD channel there is.

[John Sprung]

I'm watching cable David and John.

 

Are the over-air broadcast stations doing something different?

 

OTA broacast analog standard definition no longer exists here in the states. The last of them powered down on Friday 6-12. What comes from those big sticks now is binary digits. Theoretically, the ATSC standard allows them to do multi channel SD, but in prime time it's practically all 16:9 HD, either 1080i or 720p.

 

There is a last minute add-on to ATSC called Active Format Descriptor, or AFD. It's supposed to tell downconverters whether to center cut or letterbox. Some shows use it, most don't. Some networks pass it thru, others strip it out. Some cable and satellite head ends obey it, some don't. Some of them pass it thru to their set top boxes, which may or may not use it. Older boxes don't. Some OTA TV stations pass AFD through, some strip it out. OTA set top boxes may or may not obey AFD. So, mostly things are defaulting to center cut out there.

 

If you're seeing a lot of letterbox, it's likely that your cable head end and/or cable box are AFD compliant. Keep track of what comes to you letterbox and what's center cut, and you can probably figure out which stations and networks are and aren't doing the AFD thing.

 

Here's NAB's info on it:

 

http://www.nab.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section...tentDisplay.cfm

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[David Rakoczy]

The sad thing is all that prime 16x9 real estate rendered useless by this nagging 4x3 protection that is mandated. :(

[Keith Walters]

I answered that right off the bat: It's a non-issue since 99% (not an exaggeration) of the population switched to cable back in the '80s.

 

Yes, and as usual, you were talking out of the end of your alimentary canal not normally involved in eating.

 

So, you're saying that all those expensive ATSC transmitters were installed entirely for the benefit of 1% of the population?

 

The FCC's last report on the issue, in March 2006, estimated cable penetration for 2005 at between "54% and 56.3%."

The National Cable & Telecommunications Association, which represents cable companies, submitted estimates at the same time from "private sources", of penetration rates between 63.3% and 68.9%.

There is also a significant difference between "availability" and "penetration". The current best estimate is that cable TV is available for connection to about 70% of the overall US population, that doesn't mean they all take advantage of it.

Sure, in high density housing areas in city centres, cable distribution is really the only option. Most of the population do not live in massive apartment blocks.

There are probably people in parts of the US that would be surprised to learn that you don't keep pigs and chickens in your NY backyard.... :lol:

[K Borowski]

Yes, and as usual, you were talking out of the end of your alimentary canal not normally involved in eating.

 

You being the expert at talking out of your ass, should know better in this case.

 

David is making a distinction between "cable" and "dish". Colloquially, at least here, they're generically referred to as cable.

 

I can assure you, coming from a family that owns rural property, even very remote areas, farmhouses without indoor plumbing to be specific have access to cable.

 

Everyone has access to dish.

 

I'd say that a minimum of 80% of the households in the U.S. have dish or cable, MINIMUM. But, in a country of 300 million, assuming 2 people per household that still leaves 30 million people without it. Even at 90 percent that would leave 15 million people without it. 7-1/2 million people without TV at 5%.

 

So, 7-1/2 million is a big number regardless of how you look at it, from a safety and public awareness standpoint.

 

 

They wouldn't dare phase out analog radio here because practically 100% of people are exposed to it on a daily basis, in their cars on the way to work, or at work.

[Keith Walters]

OTA broacast analog standard definition no longer exists here in the states. The last of them powered down on Friday 6-12. What comes from those big sticks now is binary digits. Theoretically, the ATSC standard allows them to do multi channel SD, but in prime time it's practically all 16:9 HD, either 1080i or 720p.

-- J.S.

Interesting. Here, with a few minor exceptions, the five networks are allowed a fixed format of one HD program, and four SD programs, in each 7MHz digital channel.

 

Until recently you mostly just got a simulcast of the network's analog transmission, one in HD (often just upconverted SD, sometimes from PAL!) and four copies in SD. This was as a result of an on-going legal battle with the cable companies, who were only allowed to start operating in the early 90s, just before digital terrestrial TV became possible.

 

Only this year were commercial operators allowed full-time multi-channel priveleges, but so far, this is restricted to Network 10 who have converted their HD allocation to a stupid 24 hour sports channel that hardly anybody watches, also simulcast as one of their SD channels. (I didn't know Poker was classed as a sport).

 

The vast majority of the stuff they broadcast is not HD originated anyway, with the result that none of their Prime-Time offerings (which ARE HD) can be seen in HD anymore. The Nine and Seven networks often broadcast movies and old TV sitcoms in HD if their main program is not HD-sourced. Prime-time is all HD with them.

 

There is very little of the multi-trascoding crap you complain about in the US. Prime-Time HD offerings are in the main, razor-sharp 1080i or 720p although of course this will depend on the origination format. The difference between film and video origination is always painfully clear on a large screen HDTV.

Some of the old TV shows such as Charlie's Angels have been given a complete HD "makeover" (from the original negatives), by Sony and others, and the image quality on those is stunning. The first time I saw one of those episodes, I thought it had to be a remake, but no, they were the original Angels. Hard to believe to believe those shows were made over 30 years ago, on film stocks from 30 years ago.

[Keith Walters]

I'd say that a minimum of 80% of the households in the U.S. have dish or cable, MINIMUM.

You said "99%" before.

You also said this happened back in the '80s, when dishes were slightly less common than now.

Tell me, is typing with one's buttocks as hard as sending text messages using only your thumbs?

(Hint: A cellphone makes the process considerably easier).

[K Borowski]

You said "99%" before.

You also said this happened back in the '80s, when dishes were slightly less common than now.

Tell me, is typing with one's buttocks as hard as sending text messages using only your thumbs?

(Hint: A cellphone makes the process considerably easier).

 

Another clever ass reference; good job!

 

Who gives a flying f8ck but you if my numbers are off? Is this a research paper?

 

And, umm, I said CABLE, not DISH, CABLE.

 

Since both under the ground cable and dish use CABLES to connect the signals into the set, they are colloquially both referred to in this region as "CABLE".

 

As of the day before the transition, only 3.1 million sets were estimated to not be converted. So that *is* 1%; this "digital conspiracy" issue of yours is, in fact, a total non-issue.

 

I am done. I don't have to justify anything to you. Where's your reel, your resume? What stake do you have in any part of this industry, other than criticizing it from a back row in a dark theatre in the middle of nowhere?

 

Oh, and just FYI, this thread should have nothing to do with either 35mm film or RED. Yet you've brought these subjects up twice now.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Karl Borowski

[Keith Walters]

And, umm, I said CABLE, not DISH, CABLE.

 

No you didn't. FIRST you said: "It's a non-issue since 99% (not an exaggeration) of the population switched to cable back in the '80s."

THEN you said: "I'd say that a minimum of 80% of the households in the U.S. have dish or cable, MINIMUM."

 

As of the day before the transition, only 3.1 million sets were estimated to not be converted. So that *is* 1%; this "digital conspiracy" issue of yours is, in fact, a total non-issue.

 

By "converted" I presume you mean having a set top box sitting er, on top of the set, so that its analog tuner can be bypassed in favour of one capable of receiving a Digital signal. If they were on cable, they would still be getting an NTSC signal, so said box is then unnecessary.

So, (according to the figures you've no doubt freshly extracted from your posterior anyway), 1% of the population presumably depend on OTA transmission but don't have a Digital receiver. That does NOT translate into "99% of the US has access to cable."

 

 

I am done. I don't have to justify anything to you. Where's your reel, your resume? What stake do you have in any part of this industry, other than criticizing it from a back row in a dark theatre in the middle of nowhere?

Excuse me, I'm just trying to work out how I would film the script you've just written.

Wonder if Christopher Lloyd is available..... :lol:

 

Oh, and just FYI, this thread should have nothing to do with either 35mm film or RED. Yet you've brought these subjects up twice now.

No, I only mentioned RED once.

It should have nothing to do with progressive scanning or aspect ratios either, but there you go.

Anyone would think you were in the middle of a mid-life crisis or something.

But count your blessings. Tom Lowe apparently hasn't stumbled on this thread yet

[David Rakoczy]

wow... good morning guys! :lol: ... we can feel the love :wub:

 

 

btw... in this region Cable is Cable and Dish is Dish.. they are opposed to each other and competing for market share. If one wants to air on both Cable and Dish you must air on Broadcast (the main Networks) as each carries each Broadcast Station.... unless you are airing Nationally then you can buy directly from each Network... say you want to be on CNN or FOX News nationwide... you can buy directly from the Network and will be inserted on Cable, Dish and rabbit ears... with very little compression. However, if you want to air in Cleveland, for example, and you want 100% penetration (both Cable and Dish) you'll need to do your placements on the main Broadcast Stations.

 

..I believe Nielsen counts 2.8 TVs per household and 2.5 people per household. We need to make more people to watch all these TVs!!! :o

[David Rakoczy]

The title of this thread shouldn't be 'The End of NTSC... well, sort of".... but rather 'The End of NTSC.... far from it!"... because until we can safely utilize ALL of a 16x9 frame we are still in 4x3 NTSC-land no matter how many lines or what scan is used. :(

[Thomas James]

Yes I totally agree with David as long as we insist on using 4x3 aspect ratios rather than 16x9 aspect ratios then the legacy of analog NTSC lives on. If we insist on using interlace scannning rather than progressive scanning then the legacy of analog NTSC lives on. And if we insist on using standard definition rather than high definition then the legacy of analog NTSC lives on.

[John Sprung]

..I believe Nielsen counts 2.8 TVs per household and 2.5 people per household.

 

That sounds about right. Their percentages are based on what they call "HUT" -- Households Using Television. The HUT number goes up and down as people turn their TV's on in the evening, and off later at night. IIRC, it peaks at about 110 million. Your Rating is the percentage of all households that watch your show, your Share is the percentage of households that have a TV set being watched that are watching your show. One tricky thing is that if you have two or more TV's on different channels, you count only once for HUT, but you count as one full viewer for each show. So, the shares can add up to more than 100%.

 

The significance of having more TV's than households is that there are a substantial number of families that have satellite or cable, but also have other TV's that only get broadcast TV -- like in the kitchen or kids' rooms. This is a much bigger group than those who only have OTA reception.

 

Here's an article with some numbers on those who waited until after the shutdown, and have no TV reception now:

 

http://www.televisionbroadcast.com/article/82518

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Chad Stockfleth]

I too will chime in with my support of banishing "16x9 framed for 4x3". Sick of it.

 

That said, I have a really crappy old Zenith tv hooked up to cable and it looks like poop! Blue beam must be off or something.

 

Man, we just shot this commercial yesterday on 35mm and I guarantee it's going to look like crap on cable...at least on my tv. I bet this commercial we're shooting next week on the RED will look sh*tty on my tv too......maybe instead of a 40D I should have bought a new tv. My priorities are all out of wack! :P

 

Also, I went to a McDonald's in Rio de Janeiro and it was really nice...some might say, "civilized" :-) Very clean, friendly staff and the food was of a higher quality than in the States. Not sure why, I think maybe because fast food is more of a luxury there than a lifestyle. I'm going to Alaska next week so I'm thinking I'll try out a McDonald's there too.....While technically America, it kind of feels like a foreign country.

 

You know what else, I like a square frame every now and then. Allows for a lot of symmetry.

 

 

Cheers!