Best lenses for Super16

Andy Karkut · October 10, 2009

I will be shooting on the Arri SR3 for a short film (premise: guy looking and talking directly to the camera). Director and I are mainly interested in a "normal" perspective. The look we are going for: saturated and 'dated.'

My school has Zeiss Super Speeds (MK3), and though they are fine, I am planning to rent other lenses for a change.

Would you fine folks be able to comment and share your thoughts on the following points:

1) What is the basic different between Zeiss SS and Cooke in terms of "the look"?

2) What Cooke lenses cover S16?

3) Is there a 25mm prime Cooke? If not, would a Cooke zoom be a suitable alternative? (will expose at f/4.0)

4) What are lenses (besides the Cookes and the Zeiss SS) could you recommend?

Thank you; your input would be very valuable to me.

Rob Vogt · October 10, 2009

All modern Cooke lenses can cover S16. If you are looking at the old C-Mount Panchros I would much rather go with your schools SSs. Though they would give you the 'dated' look you're going for, it might be hard to find a place that still carries them unless you know somebody. Which school do you go to that carries a set of MK3 btw?

Cooke S16 S4s do exist at 6, 9.5 and 12mm, but you'd be hard pressed to find them at a rental house. They have a 25mm but you'd be using the S4 25mm which is the same used for 35mm, not one specially made with a smaller image circle for S16. I don't know anyone who's shot 16mm using S4s.

The other option you could consider, since you'll be shooting at a decent stop is the Arri Ultra 16s which is, I believe the most recently made set of primes for 16mm.

To get that dated look you can use production design and maybe a more saturated stock. 7285 processed in E6 or maybe Fuji 160T...

The reason I prefer using a different stock over older lenses is because even though the lenses have changed the look, functionally they have improved so much over the old 70's lenses that I've just been spoiled.

Gus Sacks · October 10, 2009

Cooke S16 S4s do exist at 6, 9.5 and 12mm, but you'd be hard pressed to find them at a rental house. They have a 25mm but you'd be using the S4 25mm which is the same used for 35mm, not one specially made with a smaller image circle for S16. I don't know anyone who's shot 16mm using S4s.

The other option you could consider, since you'll be shooting at a decent stop is the Arri Ultra 16s which is, I believe the most recently made set of primes for 16mm.

I've shot S16 with the S4s. They still look very pretty :)

As far as Ultra 16s, only CSC has them in the city and they aren't very cheap at the end of the day...

Tom Jensen · October 10, 2009

Why spend money that you don't have to when you have a good set of lenses already? Use that money for production value. Just make sure the camera flange is correct and the lenses have been serviced. Cookes are big and bulky. Zeiss is compact and lighter. You will not be able to tell the difference on a student film whether a Cooke or Zeiss was used.

Andy Karkut · October 10, 2009

Thanks for your comments, everyone. Very helpful.

Yes, we are positively looking to invest time and resources into production design. Depending on budget, the option to use the Cookes or other lenses may still be on the table, however the suggestion to stick with the MK3 and focusing more on the film stock and lab process seems sound. Any thoughts on the following:

1) What would be your personal preference between Kodak 7285 (100D) and Fuji color reversal?

2) Is the E6 process same as the "cross process"?

3) Any idea how strobe flash would appear on film, using color reversal stock (action basically takes place in a photo booth).

Thank you again for your responses; they are very helpful to me.

Tebbe Schoeningh · October 11, 2009

Thanks for your comments, everyone. Very helpful.

Yes, we are positively looking to invest time and resources into production design. Depending on budget, the option to use the Cookes or other lenses may still be on the table, however the suggestion to stick with the MK3 and focusing more on the film stock and lab process seems sound. Any thoughts on the following:

1) What would be your personal preference between Kodak 7285 (100D) and Fuji color reversal?

2) Is the E6 process same as the "cross process"?

3) Any idea how strobe flash would appear on film, using color reversal stock (action basically takes place in a photo booth).

Thank you again for your responses; they are very helpful to me.

Andrew: if you really want to spend money on lenses, consider Ilumina too. They are nice, in terms of definition sometimes even better than some Zeiss. Depends on the condition of your schools set of primes too.

Personally I like the Cooke S4. The "fall of " of depth of field is not as hard as with other lenses.

E6 is not the same as cross process. E6 is the process for color reversal film in still-photography, "Cross process" means, that you would develop your reversal stock as negative (C-41 in still photography). The result is a high-contrast, grainy image with shifts in color reproduction that depends on your stock and the lab.

Anyway, the names of processes in motion-picture films vary from those in still-photography: The normal negative process is called "ECN-2" and consists in different chemicals and a first step during the processing that removes the anti-halo back of the film.

Thogh the color reversal process for Ektachrome 100D 5285/7285 is the "normal" E6, Kodak recmmends to process it in motion-film labs too.

Andy Karkut · October 12, 2009

Thanks so much for your comprehensive response, Tebbe! I will definitely look into the Illumina.

There is a very good chance I will be able to get the Angenieux 12-120mm zoom in a few days. Since the look I'm after is vintage 70s and 'dated,' I am hoping this lens may help.

Since we are fortunately able to test, I can now try a combination of Stocks (Ektachrome 7285 vs. Fuji Vivid 160T vs. Fuji Eterna 400T) and Lenses (MK3 vs. Others).

Lastly, any suggestions on diffusion/filters I could throw in there when I test? Thanks.

Chris Keth · October 12, 2009

IMO, if you want it to look like 70s 16mm, shoot some ektachrome and light it with hard fixtures and aim for a glossy style. I would stick with the super speeds if I were you. They'll do fine and are period correct, I believe.