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NatashaBedu

RED with anamorphic

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Hi there,

 

Currently in the middle of testing the Red (build 20) with Anamorphic lenses. Post production dept. is having problems unsqueezing the images. Does anyone know what settings should have on the camera and what post should be doing to make sure the footage is the right size? When they ran the footage through red rushes, final cut had problems with the squeeze and when using new software called Red Rocket and Cine X, it's cropping the top and bottom. Is this a camera issue or a post issue? Thanks in advance!

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So why does anyone shoot anamorphic with a digital camera? Doesn't it make more sense to stick with spherical lenses and square pixels?

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Anamorphic is a bit more than an aspect ratio. The lenses for it all have their own unique characteristics, and there's the whole nature of the flare and bokeh. Sadly, that's the only input i can give on the issue.

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A lot of people have shot anamorphic with Red , Soderberg ,did it on "Che" . it sounds like a post problem to me ! maybe first time they have had to deal with it ?

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I suppose one can argue that with widescreen 16 x 9 aspect ratios that the whole 4 perf picture frame is utilized with no waste. However because the ratio between horizontal and vertical resolution is uneven I doubt that there is any increase in picture quality from a 3 perf picture inserted in a 4 perf frame. The fact is that with the move to digital 2k and 4k projection the workflow should be optimized for those delivery formats that use square pixels and spherical lenses. I think when Red Epic offers full frame Vista Vision more cinematographers will discard anamorphic.

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I think when Red Epic offers full frame Vista Vision more cinematographers will discard anamorphic.

 

Again, unless one likes the anamorphic look . . .

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Again, unless one likes the anamorphic look . . .

 

We're going for the specific look that anamorphic lenses give (flares, focus, etc) so its not just for the aspect ratio. I've tried to research how they did it on Ché but i'm getting no answers. Anyone have any idea? Anyone? (crickets...)

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Does anyone know what settings should have on the camera and what post should be doing to make sure the footage is the right size?

Camera project settings should be "4K ANA" or "3K ANA". This should allow you to see your footage unsqueezed out of the camera's HD-SDI preview on set. Post needs to make sure they rescale the footage as "Fit Width 2x" to render out unsqueezed Prores files. Other than that, not sure what you're Final Cut settings should be.

 

Is this a camera issue or a post issue?

It's definitely a post issue. Red Rushes has a "Scale" function under the "Resize" tab. Maybe the post guys forgot to check the scale button, or to set "Fit/Stretch" as "Fit Width 2x"?

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So why does anyone shoot anamorphic with a digital camera? Doesn't it make more sense to stick with spherical lenses and square pixels?

 

 

Because it looks nothing like spherical lenses.

 

jb

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Yes but the look of anamorphic other than a preference towards anamorphic lenses is still concerned with optimizing for film projection output. However with digital origination and with digital projection we ought to be developing technolgies optimized for digital rather than be stuck with mimicking film and all of its inherent limitations.

 

If one desires a more horizontal stretched out look such as anamorphic rather than use crude technologies such as interlacing which thins out the resolution of the image in the vertical dimension and anamorphic which thins out the resolution image in the horizontal dimension we should take full advantage of the more complex digital technologies were we can decide exactly where the image should lose resolution. So rather than using crude anamorphic lenses or sensors which are built into the camera we should be using the newer digital anthropomorphic technology based on fractal mathematics that uses space variant pixels where more and smaller size pixels are concentrated in the center or fovea of the artificial retina and less and bigger pixels are loated on the peripheral areas of the sensor.

 

An example of this newer anthropomorphic lens photography was in the movie "The Assasination of Jesse James" which created a tunnel vision effect where the peripheral areas of the image were clouded.

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Thomas , i have no idea of your age !! but you cant have ever seen a anamorphic film shot well printed well and projected well , if you havent yet ? think you should try and see one !

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An example of this newer anthropomorphic lens photography was in the movie "The Assasination of Jesse James" which created a tunnel vision effect where the peripheral areas of the image were clouded.

 

Jesse James was not anamorphic nor was it digital so there were no pixles. The distorted shots were done in camera with home made glass.

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An example of this newer anthropomorphic lens photography was in the movie "The Assasination of Jesse James" which created a tunnel vision effect where the peripheral areas of the image were clouded.

 

Jesse James was not anamorphic nor was it digital so there were no pixles. The distorted shots were done in camera with home made glass.

 

Not exactly homemade glass - Otto Nemenz put the set together with front element-less lenses and plus diopters. It certainly wasn't a post-effect, Thomas. I don't know where you get your info from, but it seems like you're talking out of your ass 99% of the time you post here...

 

Also, the later builds have Anamorphic support for the desqueezing in monitoring.

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The fact is that with the move to digital 2k and 4k projection the workflow should be optimized for those delivery formats that use square pixels and spherical lenses. I think when Red Epic offers full frame Vista Vision more cinematographers will discard anamorphic.

 

What the hell are you talking about?

 

For all we know he is shooting an anamorphic music video for YouTube, so 2K or 4K projectors is totally totally off-topic and inappropriate here.

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The Jesse James tunnel vision effects were accomplished with resolution variant lenses and shot on film however a digital camera with space variant pixels will also produce tunnel vision effects. The human retina also produces a tunnel vision effect in order to efficiently compress enourmous amounts of information but this is minimized by rapid eye movements.

 

As for anamorphic lenses used with film this same effect can be created using digital cameras that are composed of rectangular pixels that output a 1440x1080 resolution rather than using sensors with square pixels that output a 1920x1080 resolution which mimmicks spherical lens photography.

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I think some are confusing the terms anamorphic and anthropomorphic. The word anthropomorphic as applied to the science of robotics simply means an anthropomorphic, android or a humanoid robot. The word anthropomorphic as applied to the science of robotic machine vision simply means to design the system as close as possible in order to replicate the human eye. So in order to design an anthropomorphic retina or sensor we would use space variant pixels so the resolution would be concentrated in the areas of the fovea and would decrease in areas surounding the periphery. This is similar in concept to depth of field were the foreground is sharper than the background. The concept of space variancy would be similar in concept to the height and width of field rather than depth of field.

 

When shooting on 35mm film an anthropomorphic effect can be created simply by scratching the outside of the lenses as was done with Jessie James. This effect decreases resolution along the periphery and mimics human vision.

 

The probelem with conventional anamorphic photography is that even thought the effects of the image being stretched in the horizontal dimension may be pleasing it will be nevertheless be undesirable to stretch the image in the central or foveal part of the image because that is where the greatest resolution is required in order gain attention to the subject.

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Thomas, I don't think you exactly understand the difference between optics and sensor technology...I would suggest doing further research. Optics will ALWAYS be needed, and aren't an outdated piece of tech.

 

The quick and simple : Camera's need a lens.

 

As for anamorphics and screen resolution....you actually gain some resolution when filming and presenting anamorphically. You lose NOTHING, and that is the biggest point of anamorphics, is avoiding cropping....instead of chopping off resolution to meet your aspect ratio needs, you film and project anamorphically, and thus never lose a thing...in fact you gain some resolution due to the fact that the pixels are being made more compact in one dimension.

 

Now all this talk of human perception and such is fine, but how about coming up with a workflow and equipment, and giving us a tutorial....or creating a project based on these ideas and showing it to us?

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When shooting on 35mm film an anthropomorphic effect can be created simply by scratching the outside of the lenses as was done with Jessie James. This effect decreases resolution along the periphery and mimics human vision.

 

Nope you're still wrong.

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As far as the relationship between optics and sensors an anamorphic effect can be created uses spherical lenses with rectangular pixels or anamorphic lenses with square pixels.

 

The only time you really gain resolution with anamorphics is for 35mm film projection because each 4 perf frame is native 4x3 Academy aspect ratio. There is little resolution gain with anamorphic 2k or 4k digital projection because you are already starting with a native 16x9 widescreen aspect ratio. And thats assuming that digital projection allows the use of anamorphic projection lenses otherwise the image will merely be cropped to fit in the 16x9 frame with a loss of horizontal resolution when projecting a 2.3x1 aspect ratio. And any vertical resolution gain with anamorphics is dubious because when you have unequal ratio between horizontal and vertical resolution this confuses the persons psycho visual perception system which causes the extra resolution to be discarded.

 

As far as a practical implementations of robotic machine vision are concerned a "Terminator" cyborg retina complete with space variant pixel technology can be emulated using conventional CMOS sensor technology merely by using software to arrange blocks of pixels into any mosaic tile pattern that one desires. However the conversion between square pixels and more exotic space variant tile patterns results in a 10 fold loss of resolution. Thus a 4k image would be downconverted to an equivalent 720p image. However when the Red Epic series of cameras are introduced the resolution of these devices will be so massive that a downconversion from 256 megapixels to 25 megapixels will still leave an enourmous amount of resolution.

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Shooting it right now and it looks awesome! Heres my workflow.

 

RED ANAMORPHIC

 

Records:

2816x2304

 

De-Squezed:

5632x2304 (2:1 Aspect Ratio)

 

2.40:1 Crop:

5414x2304

 

2.40 in 2k:

2707x1151

 

For Dailies:

REDRushes - Scale 1280x640 - Change "Fit/Stretch" to "Fit Width x2"

 

For final output I can color time 2816x2304 in Color. Then take into Shake and De-squeze, crop, and rescale if wanted.

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Yes, I think all the other people here are confused. I´m on the other hand completely with you, Thomas.... It is about humanoid robots. Thanks for clearing that one up.

 

Kristian

 

I think some are confusing the terms anamorphic and anthropomorphic. The word anthropomorphic as applied to the science of robotics simply means an anthropomorphic, android or a humanoid robot. The word anthropomorphic as applied to the science of robotic machine vision simply means to design the system as close as possible in order to replicate the human eye. So in order to design an anthropomorphic retina or sensor we would use space variant pixels so the resolution would be concentrated in the areas of the fovea and would decrease in areas surounding the periphery. This is similar in concept to depth of field were the foreground is sharper than the background. The concept of space variancy would be similar in concept to the height and width of field rather than depth of field.

 

When shooting on 35mm film an anthropomorphic effect can be created simply by scratching the outside of the lenses as was done with Jessie James. This effect decreases resolution along the periphery and mimics human vision.

 

The probelem with conventional anamorphic photography is that even thought the effects of the image being stretched in the horizontal dimension may be pleasing it will be nevertheless be undesirable to stretch the image in the central or foveal part of the image because that is where the greatest resolution is required in order gain attention to the subject.

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And now that we have the meaning of the word anthropomorphic cleared up the root definition of the word anamorphic means change such as anamorphic evolution.

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