Why isn't the industry more represented?

[Tom Jensen]

I don't think that is appropriate at all. Is that intended as an insult to me personally or are you attacking Christianity as a whole?

 

Probably Christianity as a whole. I have seen Christians do some great things but some horrible things as well. I would say that if anyone had an agenda, it would be the Christian right. The godhatesfags.com was just a case in point. If I made a movie about that guy would it be anti-christian? I have seen Christians discriminate against non Christians on numerous occasions.I have seen Christians look down their noses at non-believers. Personally, I don't buy it. It's a fairy tale to me. The Bible is more of a book of comfort and less of a factual document. Jesus never claimed to be a Messiah or the son of God, that was all written later. I see too many Christians pushing their agenda and particularly when it comes to gays. Look at the funding that went into defeating proposition 8. What business is it of mine if gays want to marry?

Edited December 28, 2009 by Tom Jensen

[Guest]

I refuse to enumerate movies with homosexual content as it should be blatently obvious if you've watched many movies in this era.

 

Well I honestly don't know of any? And I'm talking about mainstream Hollywood movies and not content designed for GLBT digital cable channels like OutTV here in Canada. Where of course one would expect to find homosexual themed movies.

 

I watch a ton of movies, and I can't think of any??????????

 

Although the "pro-homosexual" remark was a bit out of line, I tend to think that homosexual characters are portrayed as desireable while Christian characters are viewed as deceitful, racist, intolerant, hateful, and hypocritical. Can you honestly say you haven't noitced this?

 

Well yes actually Christians as a group take some what of a beating on SNL, South Park, Borat, and lot's of other comedy programs. Part of the reason this occurs is because the comedians know that Christians won't do any thing in retaliation for these jokes. Christians won't march on the HQ of NBC because they didn't like a particular sketch on SNL.

 

Catholics must endure endless jokes on late night TV about all priests being pedophiles. That's really unfortunate and some what mean, but there you have it.

 

Actually the idea of "stereotypes" in film and TV is a thread all on it's own and would probably last 500 posts!

 

 

There is a "good ole boys" network going on and unless you are Richard Boddington who manages to have the fortune (which, no offense Richard, but you weren't just talented, you were also lucky), then you have to deal with the conventional channels and hope you can appeal to someones particular racial-social-economic predisposition.

 

No question that there is a "good ol boys" network in film. Incidentally have you looked at the make-up of the US senate lately? Not really a reflection of a diverse America is it? You need to be male, white, and a billionaire to join that club.

 

But I'm still not 100% convinced that the lack of women and minorities behind the camera is caused solely by discrimination by the white male power structure. It is a factor, yes, I admit that. But the data we need and can't really get access to is how many women and minorities actually want a career in film behind the camera?

 

I have a friend who works at ILM and this has to be the whitest most male dominated company in the film industry. Is this because ILM won't hire women and minorities? Or is it because women and minorities have little interest in doing SFX work on a computer for 10-12 hours a day? I really don't know?

 

Oh and I don't have a "fortune" by any means, unless you meant "good fortune?" There is no such thing as luck in this biz Matthew...luck is when preparation meets opportunity. "If" The Dogfather is a huge success, it will be a success partly because I picked up a Super 8 camera when I was 12 years old and have never put it down. How is that luck? Sounds more like hard work and perseverance to me.

 

R,

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Oh and I don't have a "fortune" by any means, unless you meant "good fortune?" There is no such thing as luck in this biz Matthew...luck is when preparation meets opportunity. "If" The Dogfather is a huge success, it will be a success partly because I picked up a Super 8 camera when I was 12 years old and have never put it down. How is that luck? Sounds more like hard work and perseverance to me.

 

R,

 

Luck is when you have two people who have similar talents and efforts, yet one obtains success and the other doesn't. You wouldn't imply that everyone who isn't sucessful lacks your level of talent or effort, would you?

 

As far as the US Senate, the thing with that is...those are elected officials not hand picked film crews. I guess society as a whole is to blame for the Senate.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Probably Christianity as a whole. I have seen Christians do some great things but some horrible things as well. I would say that if anyone had an agenda, it would be the Christian right. The godhatesfags.com was just a case in point. If I made a movie about that guy would it be anti-christian? I have seen Christians discriminate against non Christians on numerous occasions.I have seen Christians look down their noses at non-believers. Personally, I don't buy it. It's a fairy tale to me. The Bible is more of a book of comfort and less of a factual document. Jesus never claimed to be a Messiah or the son of God, that was all written later. I see too many Christians pushing their agenda and particularly when it comes to gays. Look at the funding that went into defeating proposition 8. What business is it of mine if gays want to marry?

 

I'm not going to get into a theological debate with you but, just for the record, the "things written later" were actually written before the things that Jesus said were written.

[Guest]

Luck is when you have two people who have similar talents and efforts, yet one obtains success and the other doesn't. You wouldn't imply that everyone who isn't sucessful lacks your level of talent or effort, would you?

 

But there are lot's of people 10, 000 times more successful in this business than I am. The reason is because they DO have more talent and ability than I do. It wasn't luck that got James Cameron where he is today, come on. He was a truck driver before he was in the film industry. He wasn't a USC film school graduate from an elite Hollywood family.

 

All he had going for him was that he was Canadian, and we all know that Canadians are better and smarter than every one else on the planet :lol:

 

As far as the US Senate, the thing with that is...those are elected officials not hand picked film crews. I guess society as a whole is to blame for the Senate.

 

I'm just pointing out to you that inequity exists every where, including the highest elected body in the US charged with passing the very laws that are supposed to prevent one group from seizing total domination of an entire industry.

 

R,

[Matthew W. Phillips]

All he had going for him was that he was Canadian, and we all know that Canadians are better and smarter than every one else on the planet :lol:

 

It's that attitude that made me hate Alex Trebek on Jeopardy ;) We all know he only knew the answers because he had the index cards.

 

I'm just pointing out to you that inequity exists every where, including the highest elected body in the US charged with passing the very laws that are supposed to prevent one group from seizing total domination of an entire industry.

 

R,

 

Of course...which is why we say "can't fight city hall."

 

I do disagree though that talent = success. I think there have been very talented people that never got a break (or a very large one rather) and very unworthy people who have achieved monster stardom. Then there are those ( a big percentage of the film industry) that get famous because they've gotten credit for other people's genius and good work (many Directors, sad to say)

 

I do understand your idea though. It's tempting to attribute credit to yourself for your success because it strokes your ego and makes you feel more deserving of what you have. However, here are many people that would be willing and able to take your spot (or even the great James Cameron's too for that matter.)

[Guest]

Then there are those ( a big percentage of the film industry) that get famous because they've gotten credit for other people's genius and good work (many Directors, sad to say)

 

Well it's the usual story, if a film is a huge hit every one gets the credit except the director. When the film hits big, it's the acting, cinematography, art direction, etc etc etc. But when a film bombs, who gets 99.9% of the blame? I'll give you a hint...the media never mentions the DOP in this case ;) If Avatar made 50 bucks on opening day who would the media be running around calling "the goat."?

 

I do understand your idea though. It's tempting to attribute credit to yourself for your success because it strokes your ego and makes you feel more deserving of what you have.

 

Sorry, I'll have to take exception to that, you are just plain wrong on this point. Many people do work hard and persevere against obstacles, they deserve credit in this case. Because frankly most people give up on their goals. Maybe you feel that you should be a lot further along in this business than you are, and that some unseen and unjust hand is holding you back?

 

However, here are many people that would be willing and able to take your spot (or even the great James Cameron's too for that matter.)

 

They may be willing, yes, able? Not so sure? How many people do you seriously think have the ability to pull together a multi million dollar film budget? Guess what, it is very hard to do, and if lot's of people could do it, they would.

 

I suggest you give it a try and you'll soon have a whole new appreciation for the word, "producer."

 

R,

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Well it's the usual story, if a film is a huge hit every one gets the credit except the director. When the film hits big, it's the acting, cinematography, art direction, etc etc etc. But when a film bombs, who gets 99.9% of the blame? I'll give you a hint...the media never mentions the DOP in this case ;) If Avatar made 50 bucks on opening day who would the media be running around calling "the goat."?

 

 

 

Sorry, I'll have to take exception to that, you are just plain wrong on this point. Many people do work hard and persevere against obstacles, they deserve credit in this case. Because frankly most people give up on their goals. Maybe you feel that you should be a lot further along in this business than you are, and that some unseen and unjust hand is holding you back?

 

 

 

They may be willing, yes, able? Not so sure? How many people do you seriously think have the ability to pull together a multi million dollar film budget? Guess what, it is very hard to do, and if lot's of people could do it, they would.

 

I suggest you give it a try and you'll soon have a whole new appreciation for the word, "producer."

 

R,

 

Richard, there are people that work with a lot more at stake than hundreds of millions of dollars and they have much less intelligence than most people...we call them "Presidents." Don't overrate a Producer, or anyone's significance. It comes down to...if someone has the will to do something, they will do it. It may not be pretty but no one is all that special in this world.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Maybe you feel that you should be a lot further along in this business than you are, and that some unseen and unjust hand is holding you back?

 

Not at all. I am a 29 year old guy whose devoted most of my short life to the gaming business and decided one day that I wanted to try filmmaking instead (most likely due to burnout.) If I was further in this field than I am, I would feel the field was unjust.

 

However, I take offense at these rich and famous people who want to take all credit for themselves and don't appear the least bit grateful for who made them who they are. Even if you're indie, you still aren't self made. Someone has to buy your products. And if they buy your products, you are fortunate. That is, unless you think that you are like some gift from heaven that the world should be happy and honored to give you their money and admiration. Horseshit man. If someone gets anything in this industry or any other, they are fortunate. There is no shortage of talent in any field. Any talent doesn't naturally rise to the top like cream.

[Daniel Sheehy]

...However, I find it interesting that for 50% of the USA professing Christianity that there is so much content being delivered to market that could potentially alienate 50% of your target potential. This doesn't sound economically savvy to me...

Studios make movies that will sell. If there is a mismatch between what the audience says it believes, and what the numbers show they are actually buying into... they obviously are buying into content that contradicts what they say they believe.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Studios make movies that will sell. If there is a mismatch between what the audience says it believes, and what the numbers show they are actually buying into... they obviously are buying into content that contradicts what they say they believe.

 

Perhaps this explains the perceived disparity... :o

[Guest]

if someone has the will to do something, they will do it.

 

Thank-you. That is more or less what I have been saying. Will, does not equal luck.

 

It may not be pretty but no one is all that special in this world.

 

Good grief, you are starting to sound frighteningly Canadian.

 

Now, to get this a bit more back on track. You want to talk about discrimination in the film industry? OK.

 

In Canada we have a gov't run body called Tele Film. Their job is to put cash into Canadian film projects to stimulate the industry here. Their yearly budget is 100 million. The French speaking province of Quebec receives 50% of this budget, even though they represent 23% of the Canadian population!! :angry:

 

Now that is some thing that royally ticks me off and makes me very angry. It should make every English speaking filmmaker in Canada very angry but we are all too timid to do or say any thing about this ridiculous situation. In may case I actually told the head of Tele Film Ontario that this policy stinks, and I told him over the phone.

 

I wish there where more Canadians on this board to comment, the Tele Film/Quebec issue is an absolute outrage.

 

R,

[Matthew W. Phillips]

In Canada we have a gov't run body called Tele Film. Their job is to put cash into Canadian film projects to stimulate the industry here. Their yearly budget is 100 million. The French speaking province of Quebec receives 50% of this budget, even though they represent 23% of the Canadian population!! :angry:

 

Now that is some thing that royally ticks me off and makes me very angry. It should make every English speaking filmmaker in Canada very angry but we are all too timid to do or say any thing about this ridiculous situation. In may case I actually told the head of Tele Film Ontario that this policy stinks, and I told him over the phone.

 

I wish there where more Canadians on this board to comment, the Tele Film/Quebec issue is an absolute outrage.

 

R,

 

Is this "Tele Film" what funded the Dogfather?

[Guest]

Is this "Tele Film" what funded the Dogfather?

 

You've got to be frigging joking me! You made me laugh out loud with that one. Not unless Tele Film's HQ has suddenly moved to Chicago, IL.

 

R,

[Satsuki Murashige]

... it is doubtful that a Christian(devout, that is) would play a role that includes numerous lines of dialog that say profane things about the God they worship.

I think actors that think this way are just ensuring that they do not work. Most actors that I know (granted, I don't know any stars) cannot afford to regularly turn down work because they don't approve of the material. Neither can most film technicians. I've worked on a lot of pharmaceutical corporate jobs for companies that I don't approve of. I have friends that work on Walmart commercials who hate what Walmart stands for. I have friends who work on tv shows and features that they know are terrible. But guess what, it's paying work, and we need to eat.

 

The producers and clients that I've worked for are (for the most part) fair and decent people, and they appreciate my work. They are not hiring me to give my opinion about my politics, religious beliefs, or my personal feelings about the corporations that ultimately writes the checks. They are hiring me to do a very specific technician's job, which I do to the best of my ability. I think that goes for most people working in the film/broadcast/media industry. But that doesn't mean we can't have those beliefs. For example, you might be surprised at how often the topic health care reform came up during lunch breaks on the various sets I've worked on this year.

 

As far as the content of movies, it surely doesn't have to be Christian or any other belief. However, I find it interesting that for 50% of the USA professing Christianity that there is so much content being delivered to market that could potentially alienate 50% of your target potential. This doesn't sound economically savvy to me.

I highly doubt that this block of "50% of Christian-identifying Americans" that you speak of avoided attending movies like "The Dark Knight", "Avatar", "Terminator: Salvation", and whatever other "non-Christian" films made big money this year. It's just not possible to make that much money if only half of your potential audience chooses to go to the theater. Isn't it much more likely that most of these self-identified Christians have no problem seeing these movies? In fact, most of them probably saw it more than once, and then bought the DVD. I don't think Hollywood executives are dumb at all - I think they've got a very good idea of who their target audience is and what they want to see (unfortunately). Are they ignoring certain markets? Sure. I'd like them to make more westerns, and I don't see any of those being made right now. I wonder why?

[John Sprung]

In America, approx. 13.5% of the country is African American. Although I don't have any empirical data, it seems unlikely that 13.5% of film crew members are black.

 

Look at box office demographics. It turns out that significantly more than 13.5% of the audience is black, so there are films made for that market. Some disproportion can be attributed to the hereditary nature of the business. If your grandfather was a DP, likely he got your father a job in the industry, and paved the path for you. Some of it could also be just natural statistical variation. Put 100 pennies in a shoebox, put the lid on and shake well. Do you always get exactly 50 heads and 50 tails? Or even often get 50-50?

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Matthew W. Phillips]

I don't think Hollywood executives are dumb at all - I think they've got a very good idea of who their target audience is and what they want to see (unfortunately).

 

I wonder what went wrong with Pluto Nash?

[Matthew W. Phillips]

Look at box office demographics. It turns out that significantly more than 13.5% of the audience is black, so there are films made for that market. Some disproportion can be attributed to the hereditary nature of the business. If your grandfather was a DP, likely he got your father a job in the industry, and paved the path for you. Some of it could also be just natural statistical variation. Put 100 pennies in a shoebox, put the lid on and shake well. Do you always get exactly 50 heads and 50 tails? Or even often get 50-50?

 

-- J.S.

 

But would any of these reasons prevent any other company or industry from getting heat for an underrepresented group?

[John Sprung]

But would any of these reasons prevent any other company or industry from getting heat for an underrepresented group?

 

Indeed not, and there has been some heat in the past. But you're right, surprisingly little heat.

 

 

 

 

 

-- J.S.

[Stephen Williams]

It balances out. I tried to get on a film in Salt Lake City that was produced by the mormon church. I was outright told that I wouldn't get the job because I'm not a member of the church.

 

Hi Chris,

 

I did not realise such discriminating was legal in the US.

BTW were they going to shoot on RED?

 

Stephen

[Guest]

Wow 45 posts and still going, that's quite amazing. I was way off with 16.

 

R,

[Saul Rodgar]

Hi Chris,

 

I did not realise such discriminating was legal in the US.

BTW were they going to shoot on RED?

 

Stephen

 

It isn't. If so inclined, Chris could have sued the bejesus out of them, or maybe still could. One thing is to quietly not hire someone because of their (lack of) religious belief --which is still illegal, mind you-- and another is telling them that is why they WON'T be hired.

[Guest]

It isn't. If so inclined, Chris could have sued the bejesus out of them, or maybe still could. One thing is to quietly not hire someone because of their (lack of) religious belief --which is still illegal, mind you-- and another is telling them that is why they WON'T be hired.

 

It's a bit tougher, all US churches have "special" protection. If a local Baptists congregation is making a video about their church and they don't want to hire a Catholic DOP, they can probably get away with it. Notre Dame University for example gives obvious hiring preference to Catholics, and they can do that because they are a private school run by a religion and don't receive state funds.

 

Churches in the US are given a wide birth by the courts to run their own affairs as they see fit. They can't for instance be forced to marry gay couples in Iowa, even though same sex marriage is legal in Iowa. Nor can the state force a religion to admit any one they don't want to.

 

It would make an interesting court case that is for sure.

 

R,

[Saul Rodgar]

It would make an interesting court case that is for sure.

 

Indeed, the thing is: if it not legal for me, a non Christian, to discriminate those who work for me based on their religious beliefs, how is it legal for a church to discriminate based on religious beliefs? That certainly looks to me like discrimination against those employers who aren't churches. This country is built on the basis of separation of church and state, which is why prayers in public classrooms are not allowed, except by maybe some Southern states. How are churches so special to get that deferential treatment by the gov't?

 

I certainly would be trying to get hired as a Pastor at a church, of course. But this ties back to the "some pigs are more equal than others" example.

[George Ebersole]

Interesting enough is that, in other fields, this would be considered discrimination hands down. I'm sure it happens in other industries but there is still tokenism that occurs in most other industries. The film industry seems exempt from all equity, labor, or any other laws.

 

Not sure I buy the whole "interest isn't cut evenly" argument.

No doubt it is discrimination. But that's just the nature of the beast. Case in point, a couple months back I tried to get a job at one of the Apple stores in lieu of the director I was interning for not coming through with a much hinted at salary position. I've used Apple computers since the very first Apple. Heck, as a kid I was playing with teletype computers. My middle school was the first to offer any kind of classes for kids on how to use computers. I've been to the Apple learning center many a time for many a shoot years back, and saw and toyed with the first Apple Macintosh to roll off the assembly line (now under glass as an exhibit). My list of Apple credentials and computer knowledge is respectable.

 

But you know what? For all that, I did not get hired. The reason I didn't was because I didn't "look geeky" enough. An acquaintance called it "casting". To me its no different than not hiring me as if I were black, asian, Jewish, a lesbian or whatever. But what am I going to do about it? I went and got two other jobs.

 

In my freelancing heyday I worked on shoots with people of all shades and origins. This includes quite a few female personnel in key positions; directors, art directors, camera ops and everything else. Having said that I should say that that was 15 years ago, and I've been told the Bay Area is a little different from LA in this regard. How true that is I don't know, as I've never worked for a major Los Angeles studio.

 

I will however say that every crew I've seen come out of LA tends to be mostly white males. Why that is I don't know, but will refer to previous post as a possible explanation. Most of the cinema student body at USC is probably wealthy white males, and so that probably resonates within the industry.