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I've been Banned from Reduser


Stephen Williams

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I really p*sses me off to read posts dissing Jim Jannard for having been a "Sunglasses Salesman". Jim build a successful company, sold it at a tidy profit, and then used the money to get involved in a new venture...improving the state of digital cinema technology. Whether you love, or hate, the RED, he's created a camera that the professional community is using on a regular basis on small, medium, and large budget projects. Any of you naysayers done as much?

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I really p*sses me off to read posts dissing Jim Jannard for having been a "Sunglasses Salesman". Jim build a successful company,

 

As I said before. What is wrong with being a sunglasses salesman? It shouldn't piss you off because there is nothing wrong with that. Selling sunglasses seems like a perfectly respectable trade to me. Jim, Phil and yourself seem to be suggesting otherwise.

 

love

 

Freya

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First of all Jim claims that his camera is a 4K system but because it has aliasing artifacts caused by a Bayer filter a low pass filter has to be installed that reduces the resolution to 3.2K. But remember this is only the luma resolution of the camera. The chroma resolution of the red and blue channels are only 2K and the low pass filter further reduces it to 1.6K before the upconversion algorithm tries to restore the lost data.

 

Second Jim claims that his camera is not a video camera which implies that it is a replacement for film. Yet all the images are captured by pixels in a matrix of square tiles just like any other video camera with the only difference being it captures the data in a raw format. So if in order to emulate the random grain pattern of film or the rod and cone pattern of the human eye a mathematical algorithim must be used which causes the cartesian coordinates to be converted to space variant logarithmic polar coordinates. However this mathematical translation results in a 16 fold resolution loss with the result that the 4K image is reduced to 1K.

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So I haven't read this whole thread but I wanted to say who here hasn't been banned from reduser? I posted my frank honest criticisms (and a few praises, wasn't all doom and gloom) after a solid 50-60 days with the camera and got banned within a day.

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So I haven't read this whole thread but I wanted to say who here hasn't been banned from reduser? I posted my frank honest criticisms (and a few praises, wasn't all doom and gloom) after a solid 50-60 days with the camera and got banned within a day.

 

That's a little worrying!

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I really p*sses me off to read posts dissing Jim Jannard for having been a "Sunglasses Salesman". Jim build a successful company, sold it at a tidy profit, and then used the money to get involved in a new venture...improving the state of digital cinema technology. Whether you love, or hate, the RED, he's created a camera that the professional community is using on a regular basis on small, medium, and large budget projects. Any of you naysayers done as much?

 

 

I agree we should keep this forum respectful, I am happy to have Jim & the Red team here to answer our questions.

 

Thanks Stephen

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That's a little worrying!

 

It was pretty annoying after I took the time and care to type out and synthesize 2 or 3 pages from 15 or 20 notebook pages I had taken over the course of a few months. Oddly enough, most of the gripes were with the form factor and not the software- little things like adding a lip to the bottom of the rear of the camera to protect all of the cables and adding a lock switch to the viewfinder so those buttons don't get bumped on and off so much.

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First of all Jim claims that his camera is a 4K system but because it has aliasing artifacts caused by a Bayer filter a low pass filter has to be installed that reduces the resolution to 3.2K. But remember this is only the luma resolution of the camera. The chroma resolution of the red and blue channels are only 2K and the low pass filter further reduces it to 1.6K before the upconversion algorithm tries to restore the lost data.

 

Second Jim claims that his camera is not a video camera which implies that it is a replacement for film. Yet all the images are captured by pixels in a matrix of square tiles just like any other video camera with the only difference being it captures the data in a raw format. So if in order to emulate the random grain pattern of film or the rod and cone pattern of the human eye a mathematical algorithim must be used which causes the cartesian coordinates to be converted to space variant logarithmic polar coordinates. However this mathematical translation results in a 16 fold resolution loss with the result that the 4K image is reduced to 1K.

 

Thomas... you explanation just doesn't match reality... the projected RED images at 4K, out-resolve the best 4K scanned film images and every other digital cinema camera in the industry. Not sure how you explain that. Not sure what else we can do to dispel the misinformation.

 

If you are saying that RED is a 1K camera, then scanned film (4K scan) must be less... because the RED has more resolution. Pick a path and stick to it. Either way you want to measure, resolution is not an issue with RED.

 

You have put words into my mouth about implying that RED IS a film replacement. While that is the goal, I have stated here quite a few times that RED was started to be a film alternative. As soon as we break down the remaining shortcoming of dynamic range (which is now closer than ever), RED could be considered a possible film replacement camera. Today, RED out resolves 35mm film. That is easy to see. Even today, film and RED are being intercut in features. Park Road Post said that they had to "dumb down the RED footage to match the film" in The Lovely Bones. Color and skin tones are no longer an issue... they are being matched every day on projects. We showed our reels to 6 different groups in the last three weeks at RED Studios and mostly what we heard was "filmic". RED does no in camera sharpening, which is a big difference from all other video cameras. That coupled with several other things we do different is the reason why. The groups viewing the footage included CML, ASC, and DCS.

 

I/we would love to post here... but this has been a hostile arena since day one. My strong reactions no doubt have helped perpetuate the negative vibe. I'm more than willing to take a chill pill and try again, but not if met with continued badgering. Stephen has to decide how much crap is going to be tolerated in posting from both sides. I'm OK either way, but am certainly willing to give it another try. This board can continue to be the offset or really become a point of information about RED. You guys make the call.

 

A final note... I love film. I have said this in all the presentations. But film's days are numbered. What I didn't want to see is it being replaced with a bunch of 2/3" cameras that have a burned in RGB codec outputting in camera over-sharpened video-looking images. Our goal has always been to create, develop and improve a worthy film alternative... and ultimately a possible respectful replacement. If we have forced the other companies to step up... then we have also done our job.

 

I did not start RED as a business investment. I am a camera fanatic. Most of you know that I am a bit obsessive-complusive. I own over 1000 cameras and have been shooting for over 37 years. As for my credentials, while I don't claim to be the best of anything, I shot every Oakley ad for 20 years (on film). Two commercials are posted on Oakley's website shot in the early 1990's... on an Arri. I don't in any way mean this to be puffing... just to point out that my intentions come from a good place, not as "management". The passion I have for this stuff often gets me in trouble. But it is passion that drives RED, not money.

 

Let me know if you want me to continue to post here. I'll try to do my part to be more respectful to all and count to 10 before my replies.

 

Best.

 

Jim

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I forget which layer is coated first on neg. stock, working mostly with print. But on print it is magenta on top, then cyan, then yellow, I think.

 

Assuming that it's the same way with neg, and I think it is, the yellow dye (blue) gets light that's already been scattered and diffused somewhat by the green, then red layers.

 

(I could be totally wrong with the color order though. Might be reversed with neg. In fact, it may be that red is the weakest with film, thinking back now on shooting through the base)

 

The blue is the top layer on neg. The next layer is, or maybe was, a yellow filter layer because the green and red layers are also blue and UV sensitive.

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hmm. I posted something and now it's not here... odd... seems to have been happening a lot recently with my posts; anyway:

 

Resolution on the red is kind of secondary to the overall issues of dynamic range and usable latitude as well as how the camera itself handles colors, which, I have to say, aren't there yet. I haven't yet seen, or experienced in my own testing (and I have been testing the red a lot) which quite suits. While the camera is 4K (or 3.2K or what have you) we have to face the fact that the limiting factors on resolution is often the glass in front of the image both in the acquisition and projection phase.

I wouldn't exactly categorize cinematography as hostile towards the RED, many of us on here use the red on a regular basis, many others are keeping their eyes on upcoming products to use and/or purchase (i fall into this group). However, what the major difference between cinematography and to another extent CML are as opposed to red-user is that we tend to ask the hard questions and criticize the camera, or any camera, as a tool in our service, as opposed to some career building piece of kit. Don't take it personally, we'd do the same thing if/when anyone brings out a camera which is marketed as x or y but is really a or b.

As for any camera being a film replacement, I don't see it happening; seriously I don't. I may be young but I've always been around the "industry," and I have heard film is dead too many times to recall and so far it has been greatly exaggerated. Perhaps, and I know you won't want to hear this, instead of moving into "he or she is using it, he or she says this, he or she did this, this post house did this," whenever trying to defend the camera, stop defending it. It like all other cameras in the world need to stand on their own two feet and people need to be allowed to question, critique, and evaluate each camera system on their own. I don't think anyone here is as interested in what some post house had to do for some film, with some camera as we are in being able to say, "hey these skin tones don't look right to my eye, why is that?" or "this is overly resolved, how can we tone it down." Instead of offering marketing about who is using the camera how, I recommend offering how we can best use the camera, honestly why certain things are coming up, and how we can address them in the real world situations we find.

 

 

my 2 cents on the matter.

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I certainly don't think it's a Moderator thing. it has happened sporadically on a few forums over the past few days. I just attribute it to my computer being weird, that or I am slowly going senile... annoying though when I type out a nice long answer! If it happens again I'll PM you about it Stephen, if you don't mind, with more information.

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I certainly don't think it's a Moderator thing. it has happened sporadically on a few forums over the past few days. I just attribute it to my computer being weird, that or I am slowly going senile... annoying though when I type out a nice long answer! If it happens again I'll PM you about it Stephen, if you don't mind, with more information.

 

I have had to repeat a post I wrote here today, I am on a weak mobile connection, I thought that might be responsible.

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But film's days are numbered.

 

With respect Jim I have to 100% disagree with you on this point :D

 

Film will see us both to our graves. As we have stated on this site 1000 times before there have been video alternatives to film long before RED came along. People choose film for reasons other than cost or being able to see what you just shot right on set.

 

I'm amazed that with all the cheap video cameras that have been on the market in the consumer arena for years now that Super 8 film is still available and people are still shooting it!

 

I think RED will continue to do what it has done, and that is become a good tool for people that want to choose it. It's clearly great value for the money.

 

I come across people every day who continue to aspire to shoot on film and leave video behind them. These are younger film people that will ensure that film has a bright future.

 

There are certain physical advantages to film that we are all aware of, advantages which no video system will ever be able to match.

 

That said I am still impressed with many of the images I have seen RED produce and I'm sure it will continue to do well.

 

R,

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...I/we would love to post here... but this has been a hostile arena since day one. My strong reactions no doubt have helped perpetuate the negative vibe. I'm more than willing to take a chill pill and try again, but not if met with continued badgering. Stephen has to decide how much crap is going to be tolerated in posting from both sides. I'm OK either way, but am certainly willing to give it another try. This board can continue to be the offset or really become a point of information about RED. You guys make the call....

 

Best.

 

Jim

 

I think the vast majority of us on this forum do want you here. I am obviously not privy to every one of your experiences on this site but I like to think that the only reason we're thought of as RED hostile is simply that we prefer to test equipment ourselves and be honest about what they can and can't do. That to me is the strong point of a forum populated by professional mage-makers like this one and CML. Hopefully we'll have your ear on the areas where the RED and it's follow-up models are weak. That way we'll all have the best equipment to use in the future.

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hmm. I posted something and now it's not here... odd... seems to have been happening a lot recently with my posts; anyway:

I've been having trouble with connection to this site for some time now. The screen will often freeze halfway through loading and sometimes take minutes to complete, although it usually does manage to complete it. Other sites load fine.

 

 

I've also had the "reply" spontaneously post the message before I've had time to write anything, which gives me only a few minutes to correct it.

 

What I've taken to doing is click on "reply" and then copy and paste the "Quote" etc into notepad, and then write the rest of the message with that. When I'm finished I just copy and paste it back into the editor screen and post. If it fails I can have a second try. Doesn't add much to the editing time, and Notepad ("Simple Text" in a Mac) is easier to write with.

 

And what have they done to the "search" function; it's just about unusable now

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I just finished printing this entire thread.

 

Will soon make copies, bind them all, and begin casting the staged reading. It may remain as a play or become a full blown film (hmmm..what will I shoot it on)

 

If any of you have particular actors in mind to play you, Ill take them into consideration.

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If I'm at all like most people who visit this site (as well as the CML and look at other resources), I'm most interested in the realities of using various tools in the field. I need to know how the final product WILL look comparable to what I AND MY CLIENTS are used to seeing. I also have to know the upsides and downsides of using the tools in the field. I've heard and seen many positive things about RED as well as some negative, such as it not booting up or crashing or taking a long time to reboot and data management issues. I need to know those kinds of things before I'd ever advocate or recommend ANY tool for use to a studio or client.

 

Marketing promises aren't very helpful when there is a problem in the field. If there ever is a problem in the field, the Producer who hired me just looks at me wondering A) why there's a problem and B ) when I can start shooting again. If I ever was in the position to recommend something like the RED camera, I'd HAVE TO know what could possibly go wrong and what I'd have to do to fix it right there and then. What it SHOULD DO doesn't do me or anyone else much good.

 

So, I've seen a list or two in the past about the CURRENT STATE of the RED Camera SYSTEM. Is it possible for someone to update that list so that professional users who actually work for clients, studios, and money, will know what to look out for in case there is a problem? And, in the same vein, what potential benefits can we and our clients expect beyond what we're used to using, be it film, HDCAM, HDCAM SR, etc.? I mean, if I do take a RED out, should I have two bodies expecting that the first WILL fail at some point? It's not meant as an argument against RED, but it is a computer and these things don't tend to have the ruggedness that, say, a traditional Arriflex does in harsh conditions.

 

Arguing about a .8K difference in resolution seems just a bit on the silly side when general audiences just want to watch an entertaining story. Or maybe that's just me. ;) I just need to know if it'll work or not.

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The blue is the top layer on neg. The next layer is, or maybe was, a yellow filter layer because the green and red layers are also blue and UV sensitive.

 

Is it blue top (yellow dye), green middle (magenta dye), red bottom (cyan dye)?

 

 

I know it's either green (magenta) blue (yellow) red (cyan) top to bottom or green red blue on print stock. Wonder why they'd be different.

 

 

 

 

In any case my point was, merely, to say that the top layer of camera film is the only layer that is perfectly sharp and perfectly in-focus. So bashing all three colors in a digital camera as not being perfectly sharp is the pot calling the kettle black.

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So, I've seen a list or two in the past about the CURRENT STATE of the RED Camera SYSTEM. Is it possible for someone to update that list so that professional users who actually work for clients, studios, and money, will know what to look out for in case there is a problem? And, in the same vein, what potential benefits can we and our clients expect beyond what we're used to using, be it film, HDCAM, HDCAM SR, etc.? I mean, if I do take a RED out, should I have two bodies expecting that the first WILL fail at some point? It's not meant as an argument against RED, but it is a computer and these things don't tend to have the ruggedness that, say, a traditional Arriflex does in harsh conditions.

That's what the "pinned" threads at the start of the RED folder are designed to do; put such information where it can be easily found.

The ones I'm currently writing only deal with technicalities, the reasons WHY people, for example say "The RED is not really a 4K camera".

Hopefully we can get more items form people who:

 

A. Have actual regular hands-on experience with the camera and

B. Don't actually have a vested interest in the success of it.

 

Like it or not, people are going to ask these sorts of questions, and they're going to be looking from answers from someone other that the manufacturers and their sycophantic followers. Particularly when they see that "wrong" questions and attitudes are actively discouraged.

Or the "disrespectful" card gets played too often as a way of avoiding reasonable debate....

 

Remember: "If the other man's cap fits, you're going to have to walk a mile in it..." :rolleyes:

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