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D-SLR FOTTAGE TRANSFER TO 35MM FILM

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Hi,Any one have an idea about Dslr footage transfer to 35mm film,then how the result will come out with a big cinema screen projection,thanks

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Hi,Any one have an idea about Dslr footage transfer to 35mm film,then how the result will come out with a big cinema screen projection,thanks

 

Watch 'Act of Valor', Shane Hurlbut's new feature (DoP of Terminator Salvation) which has been shot predominantly on the 5D MKII. It's all being printed to 35mm. Not out for a while yet though. According to his blog, he seems very happy with the results.

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I know a DP in Ecuador that built his own HD to film rig. He has been running tests with 7D footage and is pleased.

 

Interesting. I'd love to hear more info about this setup

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Interesting. I'd love to hear more info about this setup

 

As I recall, he is using a large HD flat screen monitor and films it with an Arri IIC running at about 2fps. He has carefully calibrated the color and exposure and is getting good, predictable results. His last feature was to be filmed in 2 perf 35mm, but the results from his 7D filmout were so good the producers opted for 7D acquisition :( . He uses this technique to produce a negative to strike a limited number of prints for the cinemas, all of which run 35mm projection.

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As I recall, he is using a large HD flat screen monitor and films it with an Arri IIC running at about 2fps.

 

 

He shoots the footage of his 7D, played on a monitor with an Arri that runs at two frames per second?

Sorry, but I don´t get it. Can you explain that?

 

Thanks, Frank

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He shoots the footage of his 7D, played on a monitor with an Arri that runs at two frames per second?

Sorry, but I don´t get it. Can you explain that?

 

Thanks, Frank

 

I'm guessing he meant to say 24fps

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I'm guessing he meant to say 24fps

 

Nope, the frame rate was 2 fps, though I can't figure out how he was running the video exactly, interlaced 1080 at 2 fps? He came up with a motor to run the Arri at that speed. I was going through old emails, and between the fact that he is a Belgian living and working in Ecuador his English is a little difficult to understand especially with technical terms.

 

If you all are seriously interested in his set-up, I can contact him and see if he would like to share detailed explanations of his film-out rig.

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Nope, the frame rate was 2 fps, though I can't figure out how he was running the video exactly, interlaced 1080 at 2 fps? He came up with a motor to run the Arri at that speed. I was going through old emails, and between the fact that he is a Belgian living and working in Ecuador his English is a little difficult to understand especially with technical terms.

 

If you all are seriously interested in his set-up, I can contact him and see if he would like to share detailed explanations of his film-out rig.

Yes, it would be interesting. I am curious like Frank.

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I am not surprised he is getting good results. There have been movies shot on DV that were transferred to film the same way, among them Nine Songs. And I have done similar tests with DV footage shot off an LCD screen on negative film with very good results. I filmed at 24 fps off a DV image originated at 60i at a constant average reflected exposure, meaning I didn't do a "scene-to-scene" transfer. Still, I was blown away by the results. Also, I didn't play back the DV footage filling the 1280 x 720 LCD screen, to avoid "blown-out-footage" artifacts, so it was a 720x480 (480i) frame within a 1280 x 720 screen. Perhaps forcing down 1080p to 1280 x 720 and shooting off it would help with some of the aliasing and resolution if going to 35mm, who knows . . .

 

From what I have seen and tried, the footage does look surprisingly film-like, even for DV. A lot of the aliasing gets smoothed out by the film grain. The dynamic range of the original picture remains the same, of course. Meaning the DV / HD footage needs to be to spec and well shot for it to look decent on screen. But even then, parts of the video image that are blown out, tend to look more blooming that hard-clipped, so it is more pleasing to my eye. I thought to do the tests because the only digitally acquired movies that looked convincing enough to me had been transferred to film. Until I saw RED footage transferred to film, which does not look very convincing to me, with some notable exceptions. So I imagine the HDSLR footage should look fairly decent, if the jello-cam and aliasing can be kept to a minimum on the original digital picture.

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If he's transferring at 2fps he could be using burst mode on the 7D instead of video. Doing it that way would generate a zillion GB's of data but with TB drives now cheap that could be an option.

 

How fast will a 7D recycle in still mode? He could be running the camera in straight still mode triggering the 7D shutter off the 2C's shutter or motor.

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If he's transferring at 2fps he could be using burst mode on the 7D instead of video. Doing it that way would generate a zillion GB's of data but with TB drives now cheap that could be an option.

 

How fast will a 7D recycle in still mode? He could be running the camera in straight still mode triggering the 7D shutter off the 2C's shutter or motor.

 

I am not sure I follow. The idea is to acquire footage digitally (on the HDSLR in this case) and transfer that to "analog" film, by using a motion picture camera to film the HDSLR footage as it plays back off a flat screen TV.

 

If he were transferring 35mm footage to video, then yes, he could use the 7D in video mode at 24fps or still mode if the film is playing back at 1-2 fps.

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Using low speed during the transfer is to get more light on the film. This enables longer exposures and the use of finer grain stock. I doubt that a 2c runs properly at 2fps even with a crystal motor with a lot of torque. The 2c is not designed to run at slow speed and it will have a lot of gate weave. A single frame so called "robot " (brand name) camera with a mag might do the better job.

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Hi,canon 5d m2 footage could transfer to film,I have called one Indian company they said they can do,DI[Digital Intermediate] to film the cost around US$30K+Stock price,first they do H264 transfer to DPX file format,then DI to film,then we will get color negative,but the cost is very high,so I m looking for alternative way .thanks

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Okay, I have gotten some more information. The Arri running at 2fps post was not correct, I believe that is a project for a refinement of the system that is not complete. Currently he is shooting straight off the HD screen at 24fps. Density and color correction are done before the screen is photographed, so he says he gets a one light print from the neg that is ready to project. Here is the text from his email, it is a little difficult with the language issues, but I think he gets the points across. "use emulsion in photo 35mm cans" I think he means load MP film stock in 35mm still cartridges. Enjoy.

 

"One first is economical one (in time of work) ... when stuff are SD or HD at 29.97 or 25fps or 60i ....

I film a SONY HD screen with HDSDI connexion , this screen have 1200x2300 pixels ... i run at 24 fps the camera , and thats it ,

OF course , before this i have to prepare the transfer with levels of video i know they are full sync with emulsion i use ...

so i have calibratioj of the screen with VISION3 500T and 85 filter , OR i use fuji 250 Daylight ....

 

to make thoses tests, it is easy , simply use emulsion in photo 35mm cans ..... so you can make a lot of tests, without running camera ....

i call tham sensitometric tests, you have to place all info digital inside the range of the gamma of the film you use ....

 

for this i use a 5 to 5% of grey chart first .... this give me a 21 grey zone .... I play with settings of monitor to can obtain this result on FILM with decent lights close 25,25,25 in printer ..... this can take few tests, And obviously parrallle qith this test i run colorimetric test to see than neutral is neutral and not have crossing density in my chart .....

 

So after few tests, and have your monitor calibrated with your emulsion .... you can see changes possibles , so what happend if over expose or under expose 1/3 , 1/2, 2/3 .... playing around ...

 

when you are OK , BINGO .....

so you need a powerfull computer able to run HD full quality without problem , but a good mac is OK .... with AJA IO card for uncompress HDSDI signal .

 

Now i am using a 2K monitor , the best is MAC 1600x2560 pixels 30 inch (not the new one!) use the discontinued one ....

 

All the work after is HOW to recapture in base at original material the images ..... this is another story , will tell you later .

 

NEXT :

color correction and density ,

make material look better than original

blow up SD material to HD ! how to get DVCAM to 35mm good , and HD full 35mm look .

all DI work

 

but now i make all ecuadorians featrures films with this process, and have made blow up of 7D to scope anamorph 35mm with soooo beautiful results, it is a must for a DP do all the image work from begining to 35mm final copy , lab don t do nothing more than process and print, my final prints go to ONE LIGHT !!!!

labs don t believe it ! "

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Okay, I have gotten some more information. The Arri running at 2fps post was not correct, I believe that is a project for a refinement of the system that is not complete. Currently he is shooting straight off the HD screen at 24fps. Density and color correction are done before the screen is photographed, so he says he gets a one light print from the neg that is ready to project. Here is the text from his email, it is a little difficult with the language issues, but I think he gets the points across. "use emulsion in photo 35mm cans" I think he means load MP film stock in 35mm still cartridges. Enjoy.

 

"One first is economical one (in time of work) ... when stuff are SD or HD at 29.97 or 25fps or 60i ....

I film a SONY HD screen with HDSDI connexion , this screen have 1200x2300 pixels ... i run at 24 fps the camera , and thats it ,

OF course , before this i have to prepare the transfer with levels of video i know they are full sync with emulsion i use ...

so i have calibratioj of the screen with VISION3 500T and 85 filter , OR i use fuji 250 Daylight ....

 

to make thoses tests, it is easy , simply use emulsion in photo 35mm cans ..... so you can make a lot of tests, without running camera ....

i call tham sensitometric tests, you have to place all info digital inside the range of the gamma of the film you use ....

 

for this i use a 5 to 5% of grey chart first .... this give me a 21 grey zone .... I play with settings of monitor to can obtain this result on FILM with decent lights close 25,25,25 in printer ..... this can take few tests, And obviously parrallle qith this test i run colorimetric test to see than neutral is neutral and not have crossing density in my chart .....

 

So after few tests, and have your monitor calibrated with your emulsion .... you can see changes possibles , so what happend if over expose or under expose 1/3 , 1/2, 2/3 .... playing around ...

 

when you are OK , BINGO .....

so you need a powerfull computer able to run HD full quality without problem , but a good mac is OK .... with AJA IO card for uncompress HDSDI signal .

 

Now i am using a 2K monitor , the best is MAC 1600x2560 pixels 30 inch (not the new one!) use the discontinued one ....

 

All the work after is HOW to recapture in base at original material the images ..... this is another story , will tell you later .

 

NEXT :

color correction and density ,

make material look better than original

blow up SD material to HD ! how to get DVCAM to 35mm good , and HD full 35mm look .

all DI work

 

but now i make all ecuadorians featrures films with this process, and have made blow up of 7D to scope anamorph 35mm with soooo beautiful results, it is a must for a DP do all the image work from begining to 35mm final copy , lab don t do nothing more than process and print, my final prints go to ONE LIGHT !!!!

labs don t believe it ! "

Hi Bruce,thanks for your information,this is great idea,I will try,like this I can make very low budget film,with all DI effects,thanks

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Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

Shooting in 'real time' like this, - If the Cine camera is not somehow synced with the computer/display, isn't the finished footage going to be strobing like mad?

 

Matt Pacini

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Syncing is necessary and it works single frame only. A 2C can work with a Revolution or stepper motor, extra shutter with a relay in front of the lens and a triggered mouse button that advances the frame of the .mov (loads the next frame). If the shutter in front of the lens works properly no flicker will occur. IMHO the quality of the display will show. Maybe a OLED Display will succeed over a standard TFT. Watch out for bendings / increase your color depth.

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This topic is veering off course. I've done tests of HDSLR footage to 35mm and the results are.... intriguing. When projected, some of the obvious faults of the camera are magnified and others are mitigated somewhat. The obvious challenge is FOCUS. Sure, you think the focus looks "cinematic" when you see it on a laptop, but when it gets 30 feet tall even the best stuff can just look buzzy... unless you are spot-on all the time with an ace focus puller. Aliasing is unpleasant when it is magnified as well. Rolling shutter is pretty much as-is... which is not good if you like to wave the camera rapidly at picket fences, and semi-easy to hide if you are familiar with the problem. Color, contrast and exposure are rendered well enough, and if you had a good colorist and the time to experiment you would be pleased with the results, just like almost any HD to 35mm xfer work, such as Red One lensed films, which is to say that overall the tonal range is less but with the right treatment in lighting and art direction there is a lot of good work that can be done, considering the myriad variables.

 

But let's not kid ourselves... the majority of indie feature work never goes to 35mm these days. And the films that do are made with more professional cameras. These are generalizations, and all things are possible but GET REAL. When you have the budget to try all this, do some tests and make your own judgments.

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This topic is veering off course. I've done tests of HDSLR footage to 35mm and the results are.... intriguing. When projected, some of the obvious faults of the camera are magnified and others are mitigated somewhat. The obvious challenge is FOCUS. Sure, you think the focus looks "cinematic" when you see it on a laptop, but when it gets 30 feet tall even the best stuff can just look buzzy... unless you are spot-on all the time with an ace focus puller. Aliasing is unpleasant when it is magnified as well. Rolling shutter is pretty much as-is... which is not good if you like to wave the camera rapidly at picket fences, and semi-easy to hide if you are familiar with the problem. Color, contrast and exposure are rendered well enough, and if you had a good colorist and the time to experiment you would be pleased with the results, just like almost any HD to 35mm xfer work, such as Red One lensed films, which is to say that overall the tonal range is less but with the right treatment in lighting and art direction there is a lot of good work that can be done, considering the myriad variables.

 

But let's not kid ourselves... the majority of indie feature work never goes to 35mm these days. And the films that do are made with more professional cameras. These are generalizations, and all things are possible but GET REAL. When you have the budget to try all this, do some tests and make your own judgments.

Hi thanks Jean,how do you transfer to film,did you project in LED MONITOR then shoot with Film Camera?or DIGITAL INTERMEDIATE ?if you play in a LED monitor,then what kind of monitor did you use for that,then what kind of lens did you use in Film Camera,Prime or Zoom?please let me know about the detail,because I want to do in the experiment,thanks

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Guest ramesh bhatnagar

Hi,Any one have an idea about Dslr footage transfer to 35mm film,then how the result will come out with a big cinema screen projection,thanks

hi ramesh bhatnagar from india.. first you have to increase output resolution in editing. then speak with lab they will answer better then anybody else..but is possible to transfer footage in 35mm. this is movie lab no from india mumbai you can talk directly with them. 98920 32443

my number is 89765 13071

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The tests we did were with a well known lab in Los Angeles, and the film-out was around 400 feet, a short test but enough to make a lot of judgments from. It was done with an Arri film recorder, the same process as a film-out for CGI work, etc. There is a lot of discussion on this thread about "home solutions" and experimental syncing of monitors and 35 IIC cameras... I can't speak to those issues. In a professional lab, the color is manipulated in a Digital Intermediate so that the known color response of the film will reproduce faithfully a look you have chosen with your colorist, using "look up tables," ie, known shifts of color that the film has. What's added when you get to the film version is a bit of grain and a bit of contrast... the grain helps to enhance the "film look" and "sell" the illusion, but the contrast is usually unwanted - but only slight when done on an Arri Film recorder with a professional lab handling the processing, etc. Keep in mind our test benefitted from YEARS of experience the lab has had, whereas any "in house" experimentation will be starting at zero, and reqiure extensive trial and error.

 

 

The advice we got from the techs and colorists at the lab were that the abaility to manipulate colors was limited compared to most digital compression signals, which we are all familiar with now. Shooting HDSLR is somewhat akin to shooting reversal - you don't have as much room for errors and corrections so shooting on set is very critical compared to shooting 35mm negative, where overexposure and underexposure can be corrected a little better.

 

My advice to anyone here is, don't try to reinvent the wheel. THe trouble you will have to go to in order to complete this process is not worth the imagined savings for a single production. There are only a few things that an HDSLR can do that is different than what you can do with other camera systems, (stealth, low light, small size) and so a good DP and a good producer would work HARD to convince a director/ameteur film maker to take a different path. And you would be wise to heed their advice. Other camera systems are much more ergonomic, user friendly, and veritile, reliable, robust, proven, etc etc - aka PROFESSIONAL. Yes, HDSLRs have been used to shoot X, Y and Z that screened at festivals and on netework televison but to my knowledge none of these were a film-out. It's not that it can't be done, it is just that the economics make it unbalanced and foolish to take that path. In the parlance of our times, we say "there goes a dollar, chasing a dime."

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