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New Super 8 film camera!


Moises Perez

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IBasically, anytime there is any cost above borrowing an HD camera, there is no room for film in the DIY market. These days you need to be a passionate hobbiest, or a convincing pro in order to get something like S8 into the mix.

True, but it's been that way longer than even DV cameras have been around. But anyone looking to have their shots stand out from the pack may start to look at small format film as an alternative. I believe that the inexpensive-ness of using HDSLRs will bring more people into the filmmaking community and a few of them will want to explore film once they understand digital's limitations.

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All very enlightening, gentlemen, but seriously, how can one sell the format to such a degree to warrant the production of a new super 8 camera or even the retrofitting of one that already exists? As I see it, super 8 is one of those formats that's held on to by the avant garde crowd, the few big feature guys that want the signature look for a few shots (like Oliver Stone,seriously, how long will that last?) and the hobbyists who, by their own admission see it as an "addcition". My own interest in it is to shoot test rolls of various stocks to use as a template to manipulate digital HD originated footage to look as close to the signature stock as possible. No, it won't look exactly like E 100 D, Fuji Velvia or Kodachrome, but does the audience care? I admit, I get a little irate when I see "fake" film on TV, especially when the person doing it thinks that the film look means that it has to be jumpy and scratched, but if you really know what you're doing and what you want out of the image, you can get close enough to evoke the same visual mood, and isn't that what it's about anyway?

 

Film is dying, we know this and we all have an emotional, almost romantic attachment to it that makes us drool over the 4008 ZM2's and sparkly Kodachrome images, but seriously, is anyone willing to fork out the $$$ needed to manufacture a camera that will never sell enough models to even justify the R and D on it? I've read on forums like filmshooting about the starving artist/techs who have deperately tried to slit and cart their own stocks or even darkroom soundstripe emulsions in a desparate attempt to keep the format alive and every time, they give up after almost going bankrupt, disrupting their family life and even harming their marriages by the strain. Somehow I feel attempting to produce a new super 8 camera would yield similar results.

 

Enjoy the format for what it is now,as long as it lasts, a lovely art form, sort of the water color, pastel or impressionistic version of the moving images and don't worry about reiventing the wheel that's being replaced by anti gravity. There was a time when I said that I would give up my Bolex Rex or Canon 1014 when they pried it from my dead, cold hand, but watching them collect dust because the film stock and processing for a 5 minute short at a 4 to 1 ratio costs more than a mortgage payment on a house, was painful enough for me to consider other options.

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All very enlightening, gentlemen, but seriously, how can one sell the format to such a degree to warrant the production of a new super 8 camera or even the retrofitting of one that already exists? As I see it, super 8 is one of those formats that's held on to by the avant garde crowd, the few big feature guys that want the signature look for a few shots (like Oliver Stone,seriously, how long will that last?) and the hobbyists who, by their own admission see it as an "addcition". My own interest in it is to shoot test rolls of various stocks to use as a template to manipulate digital HD originated footage to look as close to the signature stock as possible. No, it won't look exactly like E 100 D, Fuji Velvia or Kodachrome, but does the audience care? I admit, I get a little irate when I see "fake" film on TV, especially when the person doing it thinks that the film look means that it has to be jumpy and scratched, but if you really know what you're doing and what you want out of the image, you can get close enough to evoke the same visual mood, and isn't that what it's about anyway?

 

Film is dying, we know this and we all have an emotional, almost romantic attachment to it that makes us drool over the 4008 ZM2's and sparkly Kodachrome images, but seriously, is anyone willing to fork out the $$$ needed to manufacture a camera that will never sell enough models to even justify the R and D on it? I've read on forums like filmshooting about the starving artist/techs who have deperately tried to slit and cart their own stocks or even darkroom soundstripe emulsions in a desparate attempt to keep the format alive and every time, they give up after almost going bankrupt, disrupting their family life and even harming their marriages by the strain. Somehow I feel attempting to produce a new super 8 camera would yield similar results.

 

Enjoy the format for what it is now,as long as it lasts, a lovely art form, sort of the water color, pastel or impressionistic version of the moving images and don't worry about reiventing the wheel that's being replaced by anti gravity. There was a time when I said that I would give up my Bolex Rex or Canon 1014 when they pried it from my dead, cold hand, but watching them collect dust because the film stock and processing for a 5 minute short at a 4 to 1 ratio costs more than a mortgage payment on a house, was painful enough for me to consider other options.

 

1: depends entirely on your definition of dieing

2: super 8 is cheap. it allows people to get into making a movie without the need for very expensive gear. then again, even a canon 1014 can still hit nearly $1K on FleaPray (eBay). but for around $30, I can get a synced sound super 8 camera, working condition. film isn't expensive either. which means someone who might want to make movies can try it out for a reasonable price. and at a comparable cost, you could get an 8mm tape based or VHS or Beta camera, but it won't be anywhere near as good as film

3: as there will always be a devoted following to something, no matter how obsolete it may be considered, making the product makes money. I can still buy a typewriter at staples. I can still buy glass plates for large format cameras. I myself am working on a large format camera design/starting a company to make them. vacuum tubes are still around.

4: expanding on the film ideas, unless we see a lot of multi-sensor digital cameras, they will never be wquite as good. first, screen door, second, color saturation, etc. most importantly is that a bayer pattern sensor needs to make up data where it hasn't recorded any.

5: as film is still relevant, and people can use it as a better and cheaper method comapred to other technologies, it makes a lot of sense to have an open-source designed modular camera that can go from affordable for the person just getting started to affordable, yet does a lot of stuff that professional cameras do (say, for example, changeable frame rate, sync sound, video tap, changeable lenses, etc), meaning you have a good general purpose camera for indie films and such.

Sources:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-sensors.htm

http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-truth-about-2k-4k-the-future-of-pixels

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Well here is a sample of the new Panasonic AF101

Super 8 has an amazing look that is totally unique and can't be matched ect... but as far as an entire feature goes, there is no chance of enough people choosing S8 as opposed to this. No film stock, no processing, no sound sync issues, no $250-$600 rate for 20 minutes of footage transferred, no mailing your footage back and forth for all the services, no week long turn arounds ect... just plug and play. As much as I love S8, I wouldn't want to watch 2 hours of it without a break... you'ld have to really squeeze it into looking like 16mm (which can be done) but still not worth the hasles and costs in comparison to the ease of cameras like this new Panasonic. I'm the first to plug the use of S8 to mix in with slicker looking stuff for a little flavor and texture, but that doesn't require anything my 814XLS can't handle really well.

 

As i said above, it would be way more benificial to have a new piece of technology that cuts the costs, hassles, and workflow problems that have become almost unacceptable when compared to HD 24P... Like a DIY direct to hard drive scanner for 1-2K.

 

Speaking of new cameras, in the time someone could R&D and produce a new S8 camera... you'll be able to buy a decent used Aaton A-Minima S16 cam for $2500-

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Well here is a sample of the new Panasonic AF101

Super 8 has an amazing look that is totally unique and can't be matched ect... but as far as an entire feature goes, there is no chance of enough people choosing S8 as opposed to this. No film stock, no processing, no sound sync issues, no $250-$600 rate for 20 minutes of footage transferred, no mailing your footage back and forth for all the services, no week long turn arounds ect... just plug and play. As much as I love S8, I wouldn't want to watch 2 hours of it without a break... you'ld have to really squeeze it into looking like 16mm (which can be done) but still not worth the hasles and costs in comparison to the ease of cameras like this new Panasonic. I'm the first to plug the use of S8 to mix in with slicker looking stuff for a little flavor and texture, but that doesn't require anything my 814XLS can't handle really well.

 

Speaking of new cameras, in the time someone could R&D and produce a new S8 camera... you'll be able to buy a decent used Aaton A-Minima S16 cam for $2500-

S8 film can be digitized at home or on cheap equipment for not very much at all. even a regular document scanner can be used to digitize. then again, some people will prefer to use a film projector. after all, cinemas still use film projectors. a brand new projector for 8mm film costs about $100 (made by Gakken.)

people will still want to use S8, and if there is a simple, cheap, user friendly and yet feature-rich option, people will go for it.

 

and the minima? I hear it is pretty uncomfortable to use, with awkwardly placed controls, and with the figure 8 the film needs to make, it is really hard to load right and can be irritating to use. and don't forget it takes special 200' film loads, as opposed to a more common size.

iactionfilms is the source for that, but the website is currently down.

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Well assuming there was a new pro S8 camera on the market, you wouldn't want to do your transfer with an off the wall projection from a plastic toy projector. I use a Workprinter XP for HDMI capture... it's a great tool to have, but isn't really geared for a consumer market as much. You have a lot of specific harware and software that works together (I have around $4,000 tied into it) that isn't a very simple process. I get really good results with reversal, but doing Neg will be pretty tricky.

 

If shooting and processing was the only issue when working with film, it would get a lot more use. Portland is flooded with DIY film makers and 98% of them use digital, most want to use film but the telecine costs and hassle have them using DSLR's. If you could plug and play your new neg stocks into your PC just like HD video through some kind of user friendly device, there would be a more level playing field for film in the DIY/indi market. Maybe if that happened and it cought on well enough, then you would see a market for a new camera.

 

Kodak has produced a ton of home scanners for still films and spent Billions in digital imaging technology. I'm actually really surprised they haven't produced a small prosumer capture device for small guage movie film. They have the technology to produce something that could scan HD rez images and decent color sampling of negative film into your PC quite well... they just need to go back to the shed. They could sell more units than a lot of the other harware they've pumped out in recent years. between all the DIY film makers, film schools, archival institutions, and any of the millions of folks with a ton of old home movies that don't know what to do with them, could finally have a way to get that old stuff into their PC for editing and sharing. If they want to support their small guage film in the digital age, then none better than a personal digital capture device. Corporate productions can afford all the sutio time they want, but for the mass DIY film/video and music market and advanced software out these days, Studios are dead dead dead.

Edited by Anthony Schilling
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800 EURO if it is DS only.

1000 EURO if could use s8 cart too.

1500EURO if it comes with a digital back.

if the price higher than listed above, I will go for Canon 5D MarkII

 

 

The closest thing to what you describe is the Elmo Trifilmatic that had changeable backs for S8, DS8 and standrad 8. Perhaps if you started with one of these and did some surgery on it, you could come close, but I'm pretty sure that much engineering would cost more than what you're asking here.

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  • 1 month later...

If you get any serious interest from a manufacturer, please reply to this. I use Super 8 in a way ONLY super 8 can be used. The reasons of cost and old time look are not factors for me-certainly not the old time look. I use super 8 to create gorgeous film which is to be transferred to video and not projected. My project has not been released yet, so I won't show it, but if there is a camera manufacturer who wants to know "why make a super 8 camera," I believe i can prove the viability of it for artistic as well as commercial reasons. But it involves fifty foot cartridges and a light easily hand holdable camera. Along the weight and size of the Bauer C royal E series bodies with interchangeable lenses, if possible.

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I have a friend looking into getting the plans for a modern super8 camera. There is a set out there and he is doing what he can to get them. I think people ask for way too much though. So it is supposed to be able to fly to the moon and back for ten bucks is what I read here. expect it to have variable shutter, many framerate options, c mount, reflex viewing and pin registration. To expect it to do more formats than super8 1000 euro is unreasonable. It has to be super small and super light. Well it has to be as big as it has to be and as small it can be without compromising strength and functionality. What do you people expect? Its funny because statistics show that the cheaper a car the more customer complaints the manufacturer gets. So the people with the lambos dont freak when there are little issues. Maybye we should try a similar attitudewith this. Hell we should be happy that there are people trying to do this and bring it in at a reasonable cost etc.

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I agree totally with what you have said there Kevin. All the bells and whistles people have listed are very unrealistic in my opinion. In this day and age when only a small production run involving hand assembly MIGHT be possible (and that is a BIG 'might') the most realistic plan would be for a very simple camera - but newly made. I hope your friend finds the plans they are looking for.

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So, to conclude a long thread in brief.

Either somewhere some factory makes a run of 100-500 new super-8-cartridge suitable cameras with simple basic features and an universal interchangeable lens which they then can hope to sell in 5 years.

Or somewhere somebody starts buying one or two camera types of these same specs, refurbishes them professionally and sells these from a small stock. A bit like pro-8 has been doing but then without their style of customer treatment and :) I.e. Wittner in Germany.

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This is an interesting thread, every now and again this discussion comes up, people talk about this quite passionately. I find it fascinating but disappointed that we don’t have a new Super 8 camera. I think to make a camera with sophisticated optics and electronics would be impractical. In fact to make something like the best Super 8 cameras of the late 1970’s such as the Canon 1014XLS would be almost impossible. I think a new camera needs to be simple and just needs a few things that many Super 8 cameras don’t have, such as interchangeable lenses and pin registration for rock steady images all the time. To make a pin registered camera with a c-mount or similar, maybe like the Mekel SP-1 Cine 8 wouldn’t be that difficult nor would it that expensive. Such a camera wouldn’t have much optics except for a viewfinder and the only electrics would be the drive motor. The most critical and expensive aspect would be the machining of the pin-registered aspect.

 

 

I personally knew two people who made their own Super 8 cameras back in the 1990’s. Their cameras were quite box shaped, I think they were made of wood, [they were very quiet, quieter than my Nizo 6080] and had c-mounts, they looked very simple yet they were quite complex, they were pin registered and you had to pull out some film from the cartridge and thread it around some sprockets and through the gate. One of the cameras had no viewfinder at all, while the other had a mirror guillotine shutter and a focusing screen, but I don't know what became of people or their cameras. At the time such a simple camera sounded weird as some of the best Nizo, Bauer and Canon Super 8 cameras were so cheap and they had so many features, but now since most Super 8 cameras are over 30 years old and repairing them can be a pain having a new camera doesn’t sound so absurd.

 

P

 

 

 

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At the time such a simple camera sounded weird as some of the best Nizo, Bauer and Canon Super 8 cameras were so cheap and they had so many features

 

Don't know what to calll cheap. I have seen original bills with cameras you mention of the late 70ies and early 80ies which easily hit 2000 Deutsch Mark. Depending on exchange rate US$ 1000+ And I don't think anybody called that cheap at the time.

 

Please elaborate a bit more on these home built top bird-house style cameras. I find this a bit hard to believe . :) You are not refering to these Mekels which had a wood-patern lining ?

Edited by Andries Molenaar
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I know some cameras were very expensive when they were new in the 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's, but by the mid 1990's before the internet the new thing was Hi 8 video by that time Super 8 was considered obsolete and Super 8 cameras and equipment was very cheap. I bought my Bauer A512 for about £50.00 [which I thought was expensive then] and a Nizo 801 for £10.00, even by todays standards that's pretty cheap. At that time most Super 8 cameras weren't new, but most were only about 10 to 15 years old which didn't seem to bother me.

 

In 1996 I did some Super 8 filmmaking workshops that' s when I saw these home made cameras some participants had brought them in, I don't know much about them, the cameras didn't appeal to me, they were far too basic , my A512 was way more advanced. It didn't seem hard to believe that they had made these cameras and machined the parts, after all a film camera is mechanically quite basic. I do remember thinking how odd and thought why would anyone go to such lengths as to build what seemed to me was a very basic camera, a camera that had no lens, had no auto exposure or rewind facility, or any other features. For years I had forgotten about them, but recently I was reminded that my Super 8 cameras are over 30 years old and I became aware of the Mekel SP1 Cine 8 camera which is here;

 

http://super8wiki.com/index.php/Visual_ ... e_8_Camera

 

I am pretty sure that the cameras I had seen at my workshops were not a Mekels, but I am assuming the SP1 was probably what ithese cameras were based on hem. Building such a simple camera with no frills wouldn't be that difficult.

 

P

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Building such a simple camera with no frills wouldn't be that difficult.

 

While not a Super8 camera, at my local camera shop, last year, they were selling cameras that were just a well crafted box made of wood, with a basic lens. They were functional.

 

There are (I imagine) people out there, with their own tool shop in their garage, capable of building a Super 8 camera. Whether they would have the enthusiasm or not is another question. It's all time and money of course. And a custom camera, built in a garage, would be more expensive than the same made in a factory - but only if there was a market for the factory made cameras (which there probably isn't).

 

So it's the garage made camera - or perhaps a one off concept camera made by a factory for trade show promotional purposes eg. to sell something other than the camera.

 

If anyone here knows how to build/machine a really basic Super 8 camera with the bare minimal features (and no lens), could they post a rough estimate on the ammount of time they would need to spend (including dollars per hour), the material costs, plus whatever extra they would demand for their efforts given that a potential benefactor would probably want to also posses the camera.

 

Carl

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This is an interesting thread, every now and again this discussion comes up, people talk about this quite passionately. I find it fascinating but disappointed that we don’t have a new Super 8 camera. I think to make a camera with sophisticated optics and electronics would be impractical. In fact to make something like the best Super 8 cameras of the late 1970’s such as the Canon 1014XLS would be almost impossible. I think a new camera needs to be simple and just needs a few things that many Super 8 cameras don’t have, such as interchangeable lenses and pin registration for rock steady images all the time. To make a pin registered camera with a c-mount or similar, maybe like the Mekel SP-1 Cine 8 wouldn’t be that difficult nor would it that expensive. Such a camera wouldn’t have much optics except for a viewfinder and the only electrics would be the drive motor. The most critical and expensive aspect would be the machining of the pin-registered aspect.

 

 

I personally knew two people who made their own Super 8 cameras back in the 1990’s. Their cameras were quite box shaped, I think they were made of wood, [they were very quiet, quieter than my Nizo 6080] and had c-mounts, they looked very simple yet they were quite complex, they were pin registered and you had to pull out some film from the cartridge and thread it around some sprockets and through the gate. One of the cameras had no viewfinder at all, while the other had a mirror guillotine shutter and a focusing screen, but I don't know what became of people or their cameras. At the time such a simple camera sounded weird as some of the best Nizo, Bauer and Canon Super 8 cameras were so cheap and they had so many features, but now since most Super 8 cameras are over 30 years old and repairing them can be a pain having a new camera doesn’t sound so absurd.

 

P

 

 

I believe the simplicity is an illusion, Pav.

 

The Mekel utilizes a 1970's era digital servo feedback loop system to synchronize both claws, registration, tension arm, etc. Plus the precision machining is not trivial.

 

In general the tolerances for syncronizing film transport, shutter, claw, etc is considerable even at the scale of Super 8 camera machining.

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Hello.. I have just seen this thread; I also look forward for a third generation 8mm film camera.

 

A camera that accepts 8mm film without perforation, and where the image is exposed horizontally (16x9 and even up to 2.35), so a new format but still using 8mm film...... however that camera would also be compatible with super-8 cartridge, by rotating the camera 90 degrees. It is common that porfessional still cameras can be used horizontally or vertically

Of course, a new 8mm format would require some upgrades from telecine and scanner manufacturer.

 

From a top leading european camera manufacturer info, a new super-8 camera would cost around 15.000 Euros, per unit.

 

I did propose some technical ideas and a format diagram on the final pages of the "Halogenuros" report ( www.filmhalogenuros.cl ) and that could certainly be improved with R&D.

 

Concerning optics, I recommend PL-mount or a C-Mount camera + a good PL to C-Mount adapter (hopefully made by the same manufacturer of the camera)

I did test a Carl Zeiss Ultra16 8mm with a Pro8 Classic camera (and adapter) on a local rental house, a few years ago and whilst it was still not really wide-angle for super-8, it looked very useful for cinema, and did not presented geometric distortion (rectilinear).

 

May be a lower-cost camera, only for super-8, could be made using some of the components of the full version of the camera (dual format "as 8mm third generation" and 1964's super.8). A full version would be useful, for many professional applications as A camera, or additional camera where Super 16 o Super 35mm are the main formats.

 

One possibility for financing the R&D could be , if possible, that the manufacturer(s) of super-8 film adds (a voluntary) USD 1 fee for each cartridge that is selled. The funding would then be sent to the manufacturer(s) with the compromise of delivering a prototype within a year.

 

Greetings for 2011...

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creativity, the ability to make or otherwise bring into existence something new, whether a new solution to a problem, a new method or device, or a new artistic object or form (...)

 

 

extract of "creativity" definition from www.britannica.com

Edited by Daniel Henriquez Ilic
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