4 q's about my new arri 2c

[Michael Baltazar]

Hi,

 

Just got my new used arri 2c and I admittedly didn't know too much about it before I bought it. So here's some beginner questions I got.

 

1) There's a little switch in the film chamber on the lower right hand side that doesn't seem to do anything. What is that there for?

 

2) Is it possible to load 1000' mags onto the Arri 2c? Are they even available anywhere?

 

3) My 2c has a fixed shutter. Is it possible to have this modified later on to take a variable shutter?

 

4) The tachometer goes up to 50fps. What if I run the camera faster than that (with a proper motor)? Will I damage anything?

 

That's all for now but I'm sure I'll have lots more as I start to play around with it...

 

thanks.

[andrewbuchanan]

*Switch.. don't know.

 

*I have heard the 1000' mags (adapted from mitchells and other cameras, because I don't think Arri made one) are bad for the motor because they make it work too hard and really put a lot of pressure on the gears when it fires up (a older camera op. told me this and he worked with 2Cs for about 30 years).

 

*Fixed shutter can be replaced but variable is expensive (check with visual products maybe?)

 

*You could run faster than 50 fps, but with no registration pin the image probably will be unsteady (depends on each camera) the CP base/motor will take the 2C to 80fps, but you made need a new movement.

 

Oh yeah, welcome to the 2C club! I love mine and think it was a great purchase.

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

-Not sure about the switch either.. can you post a pic of it?

 

-1000 foot mags probably need either a separate torque motor or beefier motor for the 2c. They aren't very common.

 

-as to running over 50fps, I've seen an 80fps handgrip motor for the 2C on ebay recently. I think there may have been a special high-speed body for this camera at one point, although I'm not sure -- It may have just been an upgraded movement (stronger claw, etc.). It's a 40-year old machine.. be kind to it :) As Andrew mentions, registration may start to become an issue at higher speeds. My tachometer is off-calibration by a fixed 26%.. I wonder if this sort of thing could be caused by the previous owner ramping up to 80fps?

 

And yes, welcome to the club.

 

Sadly, I'm going to be getting out of the club shortly.. upgrading to BL3.

 

Anyone interested in a 2C package w/ 4 cooke primes, matte box, 400' mags, etc.? I'm going to eBay it in the next week or so. Only blew 2000-2500 feet through it. Even built a funky digital tachometer for it.

 

-Sean

[Michael Baltazar]

thanks for the info..

 

about the switch: Here's a pic.

 

Its drawn here in red, located in the inside of the film chamber. It pivots up and down (noted by the black arrow).

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

thanks for the info..

 

about the switch:  Here's a pic. 

 

Its drawn here in red, located in the inside of the film chamber.  It pivots up and down (noted by the black arrow).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

hmm.. that's weird. I'll have a look at mine when I get home.. never seen a switch on the inside before. Is it attached to the inside of the door, or the wall of the camera body? (like under the film movement cam?)

[Michael Baltazar]

hmm.. that's weird.  I'll have a look at mine when I get home.. never seen a switch on the inside before.  Is it attached to the inside of the door, or the wall of the camera body? (like under the film movement cam?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Its on the body of the camera. I'm pretty sure all 2c's have 'em - its probably not even a switch. I just didn't know what to call it =).

[Patrick Neary]

Hi- not all 2-Cs have them, it's a buckle-trip switch. When the last of the film runs through the gate, the film is pulled tight and pulls up on the switch, cutting off the motor. Nice little option to have!

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

Hi- not all 2-Cs have them, it's a buckle-trip switch. When the last of the film runs through the gate, the film is pulled tight and pulls up on the switch, cutting off the motor. Nice little option to have!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

aha! handy. would also help save the gate in the event of a movement seizure, but where the teeth keep pulling.

[Michael Baltazar]

Awesome! this forum is great!

 

one more question for you guys...

 

Do I need a filter holder or should I be able to slide the filters directly into the filter area in the matte box.

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

Do I need a filter holder or should I be able to slide the filters directly into the filter area in the matte box.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That depends on the size of filters you're dealing with. If you've got the standard 3x3 matte box, it will hold standard 3x3 glass filters.

Heck, I've taped Cokin-P style filters into my matte box before with good results (ND's).

[andrewbuchanan]

  Even built a funky digital tachometer for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sean, I would love to hear more about this digital tach. It would be fun to see if my mech tach is in proper order.

 

... I want to be in the BL3 club...

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

Sean, I would love to hear more about this digital tach.  It would be fun to see if my mech tach is in proper order.

 

... I want to be in the BL3 club...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

D'oh! Just heard from the seller that the BL3 sold out from under my nose :(

Still in the 2C club it seems.

 

As to the tach.. I mounted a thin blade on the inching knob and mounted a sensor on a small bracket right next to it. The blade cuts the beam 2x per revolution. These pulses run down a cable to the tach/controller where they are timed by a microcontroller. A 4 x 7-segment led display shows the calculated framerate. Also counts footage. It wasn't just meant to be a tach, but a complete crystal speed controller. The microcontroller is capable of switching the motor on and off and varying the speed via PWM. I haven't perfected that half of it yet though. I need to smooth out the edges on the high-current PWM section. It produces too much EMI and interferes with the operation of the tach (and probably other nearby exposed electronics). Basically I need to finish it as a DC-DC converter. In the meantime, it works great as a tachometer :)

I should post some photos some time.

 

-Sean

[Christian Appelt]

baltazar,

 

a friend of mine had a 1000ft. mag adapted for his 2C, and it caused nothing but trouble. As it has been said in this thread, too much stress on gears & motor.

 

When the 2C was used in the Arri Blimp 300, they used a Mitchell 1000-ft.-mag, but it was not driven by and connected directly to the camera body.

 

I wouldn't recommend the 2C for high speed filming, better to rent an Arri 3 or some other pin registered camera for that special shots. Registration will suffer at frame rates above 40 fps.

 

VERY IMPORTANT, even for standard speed: Have your camera lubricated properly, not only the pulldown mechanism, but the interior gear. have it done by a camera technician, it should not be very expensive as it is a quite simple maintenance job. Your Arri will run much quieter and give better registration.

[Michael Baltazar]

Christian,

 

Great advice. Thanks - sounds like I'll be sticking to slower speeds and 400 ' Mags.

 

Regarding lubrication... what's the best oil and grease to use? Would just a normal can of WD40 suffice? I'm out here in New Zealand (no man's land) and I'm not sure if there's any Arri 2c technicians out here I can get a hold of, so I'll probably have to do most of the maintenance myself!

[Christian Appelt]

There's a special grease for the movement cam and the gears, contact the next Arri dealer or rental house with service facility. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES use some universal lube for the gears, they have hard fibre parts that mayb be affected by certain chemicals. You can do it yourself if you open the camera body carefully (careful with the mirror shutter...). Oh, and when you do it, don't forget the mags, when you remove the cover on the gear side, there is a small transmission belt that may need replacement too. The inner mag gears need grease too.

 

Get this book:

 

The Arri 35 Book

 

If I remember correctly, it tells all about lubing Arri cameras you need to know, and it's a source of all you ever wanted to know but never dared to ask... :)

[Michael Baltazar]

Ok - so I'm starting to get back some footage I've shot after testing this camera out.

I'm just loading in still camera film into it for now (waiting on some short-ends I ordered)

so I get back around 60 frames or so...

 

First question - I get this over-exposed 'stripe' about 1cm tall horizontally

across the negative on around the 14th frame into the shot. It doesn't happen again, it

just happens that one time per roll (but on EVERY roll). Its across the entire width

of the negative i.e. through to the perforations and past the gate. Anyone have any

idea what I'm seeing? Is that normal...some sort of light leak, but then why only

that particular frame? Of course I don't know what happens when i run more than 2s

worth of footage through perhaps it does reoccur. My guess is its a per shot thing...

could it be related to the film running through getting taught?

 

The eyepiece is a real pain to use... What's the possibility of getting/rigging an eyepiece that can turn?

 

Another question about the body of the camera. Next to the tachometer on the lower

right side is a port of some sort. What's this for and what plugs into there?

 

Man.. i'd be so lost without this forum.

[Patrick Neary]

hmmmmm- here's a stab-

 

if you count 14 frames back from the gate, I'm betting you end up somewhere near where the mag attaches to the camera, maybe there's a bum seal there, or the mag is not seating properly- sorry if this is too obvious, but when you plop the mag onto the camera, that little silver button sticking out of the front of the camera body (right where the front of the mag hits the camera) needs to be "popped" back in to lock the mag in place.

 

anyway, there's my guess-

 

also, there's a "periscope finder" that also fits the arri S that makes the 2C easier to use!

[Michael Baltazar]

So I'm still trying to trouble shoot this 'horizontal' light leak that seems to be happening. I've shot some more tests, and now I've noticed its actually a recurring thing. It happens about every 8 frames or so, but some are more subtle than others. Sometimes its just around the edges of the sprocket holes!!

 

I've made sure I've locked down the mag and closed all the doors when shooting. My guess is its something in the film chamber since it happens outside of the gate and the gated image exposes fine. I've got two magazines and I get the same results with both. Anyone have any more guesses?

 

I'll see if I can't post some pics of it.

[GeorgeSelinsky]

Here's what I'd do,

 

Take some expired still C-41 based 35mm color negative film (or black and white, but color is easy to get developed in a 60 minute lab), thread it through the magazine, then in the dark load the camera, putting the film into its path (may be a bit tough in the dark but do the best you can. Using a hole punch, punch a hole in the center of the film and put the hole right below the gate (you can feel this with your finger). Then when the camera is properly sealed (make sure the shutter is closed first), bathe the camera with a powerful 1000W light from all sides. Go back into the darkroom and unload it. Then get this roll of film developed (not printed, just neg developing and make sure to instruct them not to cut it up into strips - although they probably won't cut it up or print it when they see no images) rethread the film into the mag and camera, align the hole punch to be right under the gate. Now you can trace where this leak is happening - it's at least a start.

 

- G.

Edited February 8, 2005 by GeorgeSelinsky

[Michael Baltazar]

Since its an intermittent thing, though, i'm thinking some 'event' is triggering it. So I would suppose i wouldn't see anything with that test. I may try it just to be sure though. I figure it can't be shutter related though since its ever 8 frames... i.e. not every 2.

 

I'm going to try to shoot something severely undercranked, and see if the timing of the mishap changes. If it doesn't, then I know its definitely a mechanical function. If not, I'm not sure what that tells me =(.

 

I'll keep you guys posted.

[Michael Baltazar]

Ok ... this problem is really starting to irk me. I can't for the life of me figure it out.

 

Is there any way I can tell if the streak is occurring before the gate or after the gate (i.e. before the image gets exposed or afterwards). It appears mostly blue on the negative. Also it is sometimes confined to just the sides, but both sides. Sometimes they are clearly in the shape of the perforations, which leads me to believe the leak is occuring in the magazine while its spooled. Sometimes they earily line up on the spool as well.

 

But on both mag's? Exactly the same??? Really suspicious.

 

Is there any test I can use to determine if it is indeed the mag's for sure?

[Guest Sean McVeigh]

definitely sounds like something in the mags. Presumably 8-frames is something like 'once around the core'. I wonder if the mag is lifting ever-so-slightly off of the camera body at a regular interval? Perhaps a tooth on the gear that engages the mag is dinged or warped? You've made sure to tape up the mag before shooting I hope?? Try taping the throat seams too?

 

If you want to rule out the camera as a potential source of the problem, I suggest loading the film core-to-core and bypassing the camera entirely -- don't feed it out through the mag throat. Tape up the slits and run the camera. Should definitely show you if there is a problem in the mag.

 

One other thought for you... depending on what type of mags you have (I have belt-driven 480' mags), you might consider scouring it for loose or missing screws. Remove the plate that covers the footage gauge, gears, belts, etc. and check that all the screws underneath are in place. Although, seems odd that you'd see the same problem on both mags.

 

And, as George pointed out, off-the-shelf C41 or B&W film (if you have your own darkroom) can be invaluable for these sort of quick tests.

 

hmm.. no idea what 8:1 gear ratios exist in the 2C.. none come to mind. I'll check the repair manual though.

[John Sprung]

. You can do it yourself if you open the camera body carefully (careful with the mirror shutter...).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, here's the drill on pulling the gear cover:

 

Inch the mirror shutter as far out of the shutter bulge as possible -- where the aperture is in the middle of a shutter opening. Then pull the inching knob and motor off. Loosen all five gear cover screws a couple turns, so the cover has room to come loose, but still be retained by the screws. Give a fairly firm bump to the shutter bulge to break the surface tension of any oil or gunk that's holding the cover to the body. Maybe loosen the screws another turn or two if there's lots of gunk. When the cover is loose from the body, take the screws all the way out and lift the cover off, but not straight off. Move it at 45 degrees, parallel to the plane of the shutter, so as not to touch the shutter at all.

 

You have to know how to do that in case you ever roll out and the mag sprockets pick a chip out of the tail and drop it into the gears.

 

BTW, for high speed, they did make a special version called 2-CH. The one with a variable shutter was called 2-CV.

 

 

 

-- J.S.

Edited February 9, 2005 by John Sprung

[Tellef Johnson]

"Another question about the body of the camera. Next to the tachometer on the lower

right side is a port of some sort. What's this for and what plugs into there?"

 

Not all IICs have it, but the port you're talking about means that your IIC probably has a 60 Hz. pilot tone signal. This is only important when the camera is connected to a Nagra tape-recorder in the old-school "cable sync" or "pilottone" method. The camera's tone signal is "resolved" to the Nagra's 60 Hz tone signal, enabling perfect lip-sync with just a 24 fps constant motor as opposed to a crystal motor (which in these modern times allow the camera to be free of the sound recorder). But if the IIC is connected to a Nagra for sound, it would have to be within a blimp, and blimps (esp. the Cine 60 model) have a little connection that plugs into the back of the IIC and then there's an external one on the blimp to attach to the Nagra.

 

TJ

[andrewbuchanan]

Inch the mirror shutter as far out of the shutter bulge as possible -- where the aperture is in the middle of a shutter opening.  Then pull the inching knob and motor off.  Loosen all five gear cover screws a couple turns, so the cover has room to come loose, but still be retained by the screws.  Give a fairly firm bump to the shutter bulge to break the surface tension of any oil or gunk that's holding the cover to the body...

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Also, if you have a BNCR, PANA or PL IIC, you may want to remove the mount from the front of the camera. Because, when I did this I discovered (to my surprise) that the cover will not come off without first removing the mount. You don't want to get the cover halfway off only to find it jam against the mount. This is a good way to chip off a corner or otherwise damage your shutter. If you have any doubts... do this for safety.