Jason Maeda Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 i admit i have contibuted to the problem, but whenever i read anti-american babbling my gut instinct is to educate. i will try to ignore from now on but it would be really great if we could put a stop to the political arguments. they are always distracting, always offensive to someone, and always moderated by the least intelligent contributers. jk :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted March 3, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted March 3, 2004 Jason, it was only after something like the third time you made some "no tax increases but pro military spending" statement that I felt compelled to comment... ;-) I can only take so much of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Maeda Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 i don't blame you for contributing, david, and i appreciate the thought put into your post. as i said i'm unable to read some political discussions without responding as well. i think the best thing we can do is to stop turning industry related topics into forums for political discourse. i happen to love my country, and do not want to have to stop contributing to a website that i normally find fascinating and helpful because the material has become so offensive i can no longer justify visiting. jk :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ultra Definition Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 I think that it is perfectly fine to voice your political opinion in the Off-Topic forum. When I went to college, there was an older Vietnam veteran, a redneck that criticized the teachers for being too liberal. He was in my acting and in my economics classes. According to him everything the teachers were teaching was Anti American, liberal; the school was socialist. He saw communists everywhere. He wanted to stop any anti-American opinion. Well what was anti-American to him was not anti-American to us. It is all matter of opinion. As long as one does not promote violance, revolution, etc.; I think that oposing opinions are good. And this site is not limited to rednecks, not even to Americans. It is open to people from the whole world. So if someone in France or Germany has a negative opinion of Bush's policies, listen. You may learn something that most of us who work in the industry have known long time ago. That's why most people in this industry have not voted for this man. Being somewhat to the left than to the right of the political center does not make you anti-American. Maybe the rednecks in politics have done more damage to America and are more anti-American than the rest of us, unless of course you count only the rich to be Americans. These are the ones Bush works for mainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted March 3, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted March 3, 2004 I love my country too but I don't think being critical of it is due to a lack of love. If I didn't care, I wouldn't criticize it. And if there's anything that makes me more upset, it's the characterization by some that being against the war or against the policies of the current administration is somehow being un-American or anti-American. I believe it is the civic duty of Americans to voice their criticisms against their own government and it is un-American to tell them not to. It's the whole point of living in a representational democracy. We wouldn't even be here as a country if it weren't for some highly critical citizens living in colonies in 1776 (well, maybe that's not a good analogy since they ultimately were anti-British in the end, although not originally...) What's amazing is that so many people have forgotten that history has proven the dissenters against the Vietnam War as being on the right side of the issue. The same war hawks of today are going to look pretty foolish in the history books. I'd also prefer we stay away from politics but I'm not going to let someone spout off against how bad taxes are without reminding them that they pay for a lot of important things. Personally, I think Americans are rather under-taxed and certainly we have been spoiled by cheap prices on things like gas, which has kept us from seriously pursuing alternative fuels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ultra Definition Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 I certainly have not been undertaxed. It is the rich that pay no taxes at all because of loopholes, various nonprofit foundation schemes, taking advantage of international double taxation treaties, which allow them via verious schemes to declare income in a country that does not tax them and because of double taxation treaty they do not pay taxes in the US. The same goes for corporations. If the rich paid their share of taxes, we would not have any poor people and we would all have decent and affordable health care. Am I anti-American for saying that? Of course not. Is this how the Bush administration thinks. Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Phil Rhodes Posted March 3, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted March 3, 2004 Hi, I'm not altogether comfortable with phrases like "un-American" or "anti-American." I think I know what you mean, but jeez, it's not like you're the only country in the world who make a point of cherishing values of freedom and democracy. Or to have a government whos interpretation of those values is somewhat suspect. Paging Tony Blair.... Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Maeda Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 attention morons: i posted a message suggesting we stop talking about politics on a cinematography website and the forum has once again dissolved into "why i think america's government is fu**ed up." let me rephrase my point of view: i dont give a fu** what any of you think about this country, and i really didn't come here to hear the half-witted commentaries of a bunch of uninformed "wannabe" filmmakers. lets all please stop. trust me i know what your positions are, they aren't that complicated. for the love of god instead of hearing erudite criticism of a conservative administration i'm hearing the lamest, most rote and undeveloped tautology. guys if you want intelligent liberal arguments i'd be more than happy to give them to you, but please spare me the real-politik. "it's the characterization by some that being against the war or against the policies of the current administration is somehow being un-American or anti-American." no david, i have no problem at all with dissenting perspective. my entire family is comprised of leftist intellectuals. in that house, i am the dissenting voice. but i also know that there is a time and a place for commentary, and this is not the place. here is a short list of some of the comments i would expect to hear from a junior high student. "Your healthcare system sucks fat meat." "the US has forgotten about the people and is concentrating on the all mighty buck." "This sort of thinking is why people fly planes into your tall buildings." "the jingoistic, pulpit-pounding, complete and total abandonment of perspective which leads to a situation like this - a situation where any opinion other than the hyper-right wing prick-waving that's been going on is somehow deemed incorrect" "the US remains unable to take basic care of its citizens" "I think we've had too many years of conservatives lying to the public" "Its goddamn ridiculous how low we have sunk as a country." "As for the shool [sic] system in the US, it sucs[sic] too up to the secondary (HS) level. I'm in Europe right now and these kids study here in the 6th grade what they teach in the US in the 12th. It's ridiculous!" " look what [the u.s. has] achieved. Look also, though, at what they've done with it." "horribly bent system of government." "americans need to wake up" "hell, here we go again, into Iraq, giving the bad guys yet another reason to get nasty. Frankly I think that's just as twisted and incredible as the whole world-trade-center thing." "this site is not limited to rednecks, not even to Americans." i have tried to be polite, but i am out of patience. i am going to finish by reiterating my point, in the interest of clarifying the distinction between my position and "censorship". i have no interest in changing your opinions on american politics. "one can not be reasoned out of that which he has not been reasoned into." you are welcome to think whatever you want about the US or about anything else for that matter. furthermore, you are all welcome to talk about it all you want, i just don't think you should do it here. if you want to contact me off list, you can list your brilliant little ideas until i too am convinced that the US is a completely bent nation leading the world to its destruction. but please, for the sake of good manners, shut the fu** up about it on this forum. jk :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Maeda Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 sorry, i meant "real-politick" jk :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ultra Definition Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Now, this is really funny. You really have me cracking up. And I mean it. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Maeda Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 good, i'm glad you took it as tounge in cheek as i intended. but seriously guys, let's just stop. it's no fun coming here and reading about the "problems" with the american government. i know it's an imperfect system, but it works in a lot of ways as well. i respect that we have different opinions, but lets not discuss them here. it's especially hard to be one of the only "conservatives" in a very liberal industry and on a liberal-minded forum! jk :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member David Mullen ASC Posted March 4, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted March 4, 2004 Jason, it strikes me that you're the one who kept this discussion going just as it was about to die. If you don't like a thread, just ignore it and let it die -- or respond if you want to and keep it alive. Your choice. But don't tell other people what to discuss and not to discuss. It is appropriate to ask people to keep the discussion civil and respectful of each other, however. But unless you have been appointed as a webmaster or something, you should leave it to Tim to tell us if we shouldn't be discussing some topic. It might have been different had you kept completely out of the political discussion and then suggested to all that this was perhaps not a productive way to spend time on a cinematography website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Brad Grimmett Posted March 5, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted March 5, 2004 I love my country too but I don't think being critical of it is due to a lack of love. If I didn't care, I wouldn't criticize it. And if there's anything that makes me more upset, it's the characterization by some that being against the war or against the policies of the current administration is somehow being un-American or anti-American. I believe it is the civic duty of Americans to voice their criticisms against their own government and it is un-American to tell them not to. It's the whole point of living in a representational democracy. We wouldn't even be here as a country if it weren't for some highly critical citizens living in colonies in 1776 (well, maybe that's not a good analogy since they ultimately were anti-British in the end, although not originally...) Very well put David. It's a shame that so many people disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Brad Grimmett Posted March 5, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted March 5, 2004 it's especially hard to be one of the only "conservatives" in a very liberal industry and on a liberal-minded forum!jk :ph34r: Now you've got me laughing! You poor conservatives and your liberal-minded media, and your liberal-minded schools, and your liberal-minded industry, and your liberal-minded internet forum, and your liberal-minded........oh, you get the idea. I think I've heard that complaint somewhere before.... You poor conservatives. I REALLY feel for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Maeda Posted March 5, 2004 Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 fantastic bradley, glad to hear your opinion. david i posted on the "site and forum support" list in hopes of appealing directly to tim to put a stop to discussions that i find offensive. do i not have the right to make such a suggestion? i'm not making anyone do anything, i'm ASKING that people think for a second before they start type-type-typing their negative little opinions about other people's religious, cultural, or in this case, political beliefs. as far as the original health care discussion, i first posted my opinion for why we don't have universal health care, and i made a suggestion as to how everyone can help make the situation better (keep an eye out for insurance fraud). my second post was again an explanation, provoked by harsher criticism (this time about american ethical failings), of why some countries can afford health care while we can not, and why many of those nation's systems fail. my next post was another direct response to what i considered hateful insults aimed clearly at the american mindset. fu**ing hell are you seriously going to try to tell me that this is all my fault, and that the litany of quotes i have catalogued above are harmless and inoffensive? jk :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Brad Grimmett Posted March 5, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted March 5, 2004 fantastic bradley, glad to hear your opinion. david i posted on the "site and forum support" list in hopes of appealing directly to tim to put a stop to discussions that i find offensive. do i not have the right to make such a suggestion? i'm not making anyone do anything, i'm ASKING that people think for a second before they start type-type-typing their negative little opinions about other people's religious, cultural, or in this case, political beliefs. as far as the original health care discussion, i first posted my opinion for why we don't have universal health care, and i made a suggestion as to how everyone can help make the situation better (keep an eye out for insurance fraud). my second post was again an explanation, provoked by harsher criticism (this time about american ethical failings), of why some countries can afford health care while we can not, and why many of those nation's systems fail. my next post was another direct response to what i considered hateful insults aimed clearly at the american mindset. fu**ing hell are you seriously going to try to tell me that this is all my fault, and that the litany of quotes i have catalogued above are harmless and inoffensive? jk :ph34r: It occurs to me that you don't want this discussion to end, you just want everyone else to stop posting their opinions so that you can have the last word, Jason. Personally, I've enjoyed reading everyone's different opinions, even if this may not be the best place for it. Maybe my comments directed at you that related to the "liberal minded this and that" were offputting to you....if they were, I'm sorry. But I'm really sick of hearing that same complaint over and over again from conservatives. I don't believe that the media is particularly left leaning, but I hear complaints about just that all the time about stories that I consider to be quite objective. That seems to be a complaint any time a story portrays conservatives in a bad light. I just think it's an excuse that is WAY overused. Well, we obviously don't agree on that point, and that's fine. But you continue to post your opinions, and then get angry when other people respond. I don't get it. I respect your opinion, as do most of the other people here I'm sure, but you should respect theirs as well. This is a quote from you from one of your previous posts "one can not be reasoned out of that which he has not been reasoned into." Is this really what you think of other peoples opinions? You're right and that's it? You spent a lot of time compiling quotes from other posts so that you could show us all how childish we were, but I find your attitude (if I'm reading it correctly) to be just as childish as you are accusing everyone else to be. You even patronized me for disagreeing with you. Why are you so razzed up about this? I'm not trying to be argumentative or to attack you. I'm just addressing the concerns that I have. I have no intention of offending anyone or starting a mud slinging campaign. I'm just curious to hear your responses to my questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Bill DiPietra Posted March 8, 2004 Premium Member Share Posted March 8, 2004 it's especially hard to be one of the only "conservatives" in a very liberal industry and on a liberal-minded forum!jk :ph34r: You're not alone, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Maeda Posted March 9, 2004 Author Share Posted March 9, 2004 thanks bill. apologies to everyone for allowing myself to become so heated about this issue. jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ultra Definition Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Hey Jason, no one hates you. Just this type of community is normally more liberal than the society in general. This thread was funny and intersting. I like you. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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