Blog on why you don't always need a DP on a feature

[Karel Bata]

I was once told not to use the terms Blonde or Redhead because they were sexist! Fortunately those overly PC days are gone, and my impression now is that the vast majority of women in this industry have way far more important issues to deal with.

 

BTW Wouldn't 'Bobby' be sexist, strictly speaking? Deriving from Robert Peel, a male?

[Freya Black]

How do people feel about the limitations of language if it is desired to give a neutral-gender description of a job when it seems that the best

choice is along the lines of "cameraman" or "policeman" or "alderman"? I know women who have all of those jobs who don't care about the -man at the

end of the word and some who do care. I know one woman who would rather have the classic term because she feels the -woman calls undue

attention to her as the only woman in that particular workplace.

 

As I said earlier, I dislike just sticking woman in instead because it sounds contrived. It's also not gender neutral either! You also have the coke vs pepsi effect going on and lastly I think the word woman is just crap generally. It's like man with the "wo" bit tageed on. Rubbish word. I actually prefer the word girl despite the obvious issues that brings with it. Job names shouldn't be gendered anyway because jobs shouldn't be gendered.

 

Do you feel that this concern is too much or justified? Part of the difficulty is the lack of an easy solution. "Carpenter" works in its present form. For "cameraman" there

are alternatives but none that seems to have the exact same meaning. "Police officer" is clunkier than "policeman" but "cop" isn't always appropriate as a

 

Police Officer seems okay to me and many people here just shorten it to officer and thats thought of as being sort of polite!

 

substitute. Maybe the same with "bobby" too? "i've heard "lighting camera" as shorthand for "lighting cameraman" but I think that just "camera" for a cameraman/woman

would be confusing, such as "Quick, get the camera!" "Who? Which? Francis or Arri?"

 

I'm a little uncertain about it. I actually dislike the word chair for the same reason but at least they are both gender neutral so I feel like it's a better effort at a solution than sticking a "wo" in there and thinking it's okay.

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

I was once told not to use the terms Blonde or Redhead because they were sexist! Fortunately those overly PC days are gone, and my impression now is that the vast majority of women in this industry have way far more important issues to deal with.

 

BTW Wouldn't 'Bobby' be sexist, strictly speaking? Deriving from Robert Peel, a male?

 

I'm guessing that must have been a VERY looooooooong time ago. You can of course have blonde men and redheaded men too so it's not really sexist. The origins may be sexist but so are the origins of vast swathes of language nobody makes a fuss about. Basically thats just silly, but there's certainly been a history of people getting distracted from real and important issues.

 

I agree with what you say about women having far more real and important issues on their mind these days.

 

love

 

Freya

[Tom Jensen]

Cameraman can be a man or a woman. Just like human and mankind. Don't take it too literally.

[Adrian Sierkowski]

camera-sapien :ph34r:

[Tim O'Connor]

camera-sapien :ph34r:

 

 

 

 

 

Captain Awesome.

[Thomas James]

What really keeps women out of the business is that in the past they had to operate these heavy cameras. Nowadays more cameras are designed to be light so that attracts more woman camera operaters.

[Phil Rhodes]

I didn't even look at this thread until now - good grief, what the hell's going on?

 

 

Anna Carrington is an extremely wonderful human being against whom I would not hear a word said. She is an extremely rare example of someone that the British "film industry" has not managed to turn into a bitter and twisted wreck of a personality such as yours truly. I remember speaking to her about becoming involved in this show and everything being very upbeat and pleasant. I won't presume to speak for her, she's more than capable of doing so herself, but hopefully a few of our more effusive regulars can look at this situation and see why I spit so much highly acidic bile when people talk about how bloody wonderful everything is.

And this was a good job for London. This is the best we have. Phoebe and all our other recent newbies, take note.

[Tim O'Connor]

What really keeps women out of the business is that in the past they had to operate these heavy cameras. Nowadays more cameras are designed to be light so that attracts more woman camera operaters.

 

 

 

Aw, come on. Are we going to see more women in executive positions now strictly because they have these new lighter briefcases? It was a lot of factors

but not camera weight, at least not for people who were up for DP positions but weren't going to do all the handheld Mitchell work :)

[Freya Black]

Cameraman can be a man or a woman. Just like human and mankind. Don't take it too literally.

 

I would hope we are aware that a cameraman can be a man or a woman! ;) However historically the jobs that were traditionally male are the ones that have man stuck on the end and it does connotate that those jobs are gendered. Postman, Dustman etc. However thats a really boring and tiresome subject that I don't really want to be bothered with. In any case there are plenty of gender neutral terms for camera positions, camera operator, DoP, cinematographer etc.

 

We were actually mostly discussing alternative names for stuff, both in the way of gender neutral names for positions generally but also suitable names for what people actually do on film and TV sets etc. More about looking to the future than getting too hung up about the past.

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

involved in this show and everything being very upbeat and pleasant. [/size]I won't presume to speak for her, she's more than capable of doing so herself, but hopefully a few of our more effusive regulars can look at this situation and see why I spit so much highly acidic bile when people talk about how bloody wonderful everything is.

And this was a good job for London. This is the best we have. Phoebe and all our other recent newbies, take note.

 

This stuff isn't just limited to moving image related work of course but it drives you extra nuts when it's going on in such a pathetic little cottage industry that barely exists at all. I mean talk about fighting over the scraps! Pathetic!

 

Having said that I think it can be good if you can have an experience like this and are able to learn from it quite quickly. If you get down the line without understanding these things then it can cause you a LOT more damage later on.

 

As for newbies in the UK, I guess the big advice would be to make sure this isn't set up as your sole livelihood. It should really be thought of more like art. Most people who study art are very aware they aren't going to make a living out of oil paintings thankfully.

 

love

 

Freya

[Karel Bata]

Steady on! There's thousands of DPs and camera-folk making a living in the UK. It's not easy, and (unlike a few years ago) I certainly wouldn't advise any green young newb to go into it (banking is clearly much more profitable, and completely recession proof! :angry: ) but that's more to do with changes in technology undermining the job security - TV news has already shed many career cameramen and pretty soon even corporates will be shot in 3D by office juniors using their iPhone 5!

 

I digress (again).

 

If you've got family in the trade, or some other foot in the door, go for it! What you suggest Freya is the keen hobbyist approach. I think that's a really bad idea. You will spend your life marginalised, always looking in. Either go for it full time, or (painful as it may be) forget it.

[Phil Rhodes]

There's thousands of DPs and camera-folk making a living in the UK

That's the common dogma, I've a funny feeling it isn't actually true. I think it may be as little as a few dozen these days.

[Karel Bata]

Really?

 

I could be wrong, but who makes all those (godawful) TV progs, the ads, and the music promos? Or don't they count?

[Phil Rhodes]

The few dozen.

 

When you're hammering through five or six eps a day of some rancid little cookery show, you don't need that many man-hours to do it.

 

P

[Dom Jaeger]

 

 

... some rancid little cookery show...

 

P

 

Sounds like a health and safety issue there... :D

 

Getting somewhat off-topic, but in Australia our very own rancid little cookery show is so mind-numbingly popular that the one and only televised leader's debate we have had in the lead-up to next week's federal election was bumped out of its normal prime time spot because it clashed with the cooking show. Wouldn't want to deprive the people of their 'Survivor Chef' for something as disposable as democracy..

 

So effectively the people who produce this show wield more power than the government. No wonder it's a closed shop.

[Brad Grimmett]

What really keeps women out of the business is that in the past they had to operate these heavy cameras. Nowadays more cameras are designed to be light so that attracts more woman camera operaters.

Well, you've now made the most sexist comment in this thread. Congrats.

You really shouldn't comment when you clearly have no clue of what you're talking about.

[Karel Bata]

Actually, the way I remember it, that was an excuse used by some men (not women) to justify the under-representation of the fairer sex. That was a long time ago.

 

(Is it OK to say 'fairer'? :o ) :lol:

[Anna Carrington]

I think that when there is an acceptable alternative to using "Man" at the end of my job title, I'll do it; e.g "Camera Operator" But when there is no alternative it's better to have an "industry approved" job title rather than something that doesn't exist.....e.g "Lighting Cameraman" is regularly used but "Lighting Camerawoman" is not. Please remember that the film industry started as a male dominated business...with terms such as "Clapper Boy" until "Clapper Loader" became the acceptable norm and I'm sure over time the same will become of other terms. In regards to digital cameras taking over and being lighter and therefore there being more women camera operators....I don't think this is true. If you look at some of the great women DOP's of our time they came into the role before the invention of digital cameras for film use. It is also a misconception that women cannot handle the weight of a heavy camera. On the contrary women are anatomically more adept to putting a heavily weighted camera on their shoulders; this is because women's hips are as wide as their shoulders therefore making the "base" much stronger when a heavy weight is put upon their shoulders; e.g the weight is distributed evenly down body to the hips and then down through the legs. Men on the other hand have shoulders that jut out further than their hips and therefore the weight of a camera "tips" them off balance; thus putting more strain on the body. Taller Camera Operators (male and female) are also at a disadvantage in terms of risk of injury as compression of the spine and twist/curvature is more common when putting a heavy weight onto the camera.

 

Anna Carrington

Cinematographer

London

[Karel Bata]

That's why I let my girlfriend carry the shopping. ;)

[Phil Rhodes]

One of the tiniest people I've ever met (including Anna!) was the lone girl on the steadicam course I did. Watching her lugging a fully soundproofed Moviecam around rather put one in mind of an ant carrying an entire sugar cube, or one of those tiny eastern european women who carry an entire haystack back from the fields. It was almost comical, but you couldn't really object.

 

Seriously, Anna's right, especially with steadicam: it's easier for women to get the vest to sit on their hips, thus distributing the load into the skeleton, as opposed to having it all dangling from the musculature. Men can do this to some extent - the male skeleton is not entirely parallel - but from what I've seen it doesn't work as well.

 

I really wouldn't make negative comments about this. You're likely to be killed to death by hundreds of angry female camera operators.

 

Personally I'm 6'4", male, and out of shape. Great!

 

 

P

[Adrian Sierkowski]

Don't worry Phil, I'm sure no one will be asking you to operate a camera anytime soon :ph34r:

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I kid I kid).

[Freya Black]

 

 

So effectively the people who produce this show wield more power than the government. No wonder it's a closed shop.

 

Well yeah, liz does have some erm, preety powerful family connections!

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

Steady on! There's thousands of DPs and camera-folk making a living in the UK. It's not easy, and (unlike a few years ago) I certainly wouldn't advise any green young newb to go into it (banking is clearly much more profitable, and completely recession proof! :angry: ) but that's more to do with changes in technology undermining the job security - TV news has already shed many career cameramen and pretty soon even corporates will be shot in 3D by office juniors using their iPhone 5!

 

I digress (again).

 

I don't think it's just down to technology, it's also due to a lot of very bad decisions made both in government and in the tv companies themselves.

 

I think the fact the tv industry is a closed shop also has been very detrimental. Hiring people because of their surname doesn't always mean they will make the grade <groan>. The tv industry in the UK is VERY class based. It means the people involved tend to have a very closed and insular attitude, and this also in turn leads to them making very poor decisions that are not based in reality.

 

If you've got family in the trade, or some other foot in the door, go for it! What you suggest Freya is the keen hobbyist approach. I think that's a really bad idea. You will spend your life marginalised, always looking in. Either go for it full time, or (painful as it may be) forget it.

 

I don't think being a keen hobbyist is bad and I also believe that people can strike out on an independent basis and do things that way. However realistically unless people have strong family connections or connections from Cambridge or Oxford etc they are a bit stuffed quite frankly. I guess it depends a lot on your reasons for doing things. One cliche' I hear time and time again is "It's my dream..." etc. I've always found it odd that people say this and the extent they try to tell you this. I've come to realise that they are actually asking permission, or trying to justify their desire. In my opinion it's a poor reason. I notice these people also tend to quickly move on to something else at some point. Hopefully fast enough that they don't mess up their lives. I don't think it makes for a good career. I'm not saying that it's impossible to get your foot in the door, but I would ask how long are you prepared to keep at it? Do you have expectations for your future in other ways and are you prepared to let those things go completely. It's not a normal career path in the way that people tend to think of it as. Somewhere deep down inside I think people know this and that is why they feel they need to justify themselves or something.

 

I think the stuff that Phil says is often quite realistic, albiet with a very depressed and bitter outlook on the matter, which is perhaps in itself understandable. If people are asking for advice I don't think it's bad to tell them the truth of the situation.

 

I'm very interested tho Karel, what would you suggest to those who don't have strong family connections or who move in the right little circles? Lets face facts, those people don't need to be asking for advice because they are sorted already! However the people in those situations are an elite tiny minority, so what about everyone else?

 

love

 

Freya

[Freya Black]

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That's the common dogma, I've a funny feeling it isn't actually true. I think it may be as little as a few dozen these days.

 

As is often the case, I suspect the truth lies somewhere inbetween. However, if channel 5 (being all topical like) employs 300 people, then how many cinematographers do you think they employ? (Going on their output the obvious answer might be "none whatsoever"... but seriously...)

 

love

 

Freya