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Guest Christian Film Project

Finding a girly DP!

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Guest Kai.w
"Let them hate, so long as they fear."

 

-Lucius Accius

 

--------------------------------------------

 

I'm usually not a friend of silly internet language but in Mr.Gossimiers case it fits to his niveau:

 

*PLONK*

 

 

 

 

-k

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Guest Frank Gossimier

TSM, Kai.w....

 

Sadly you two are unable to formulate an argument of any substance and must rely on obscure quotes. Speaks volumes to your lack of any real intelligence or the ability to create your own logical counter point.

 

What? You think re-quoting me causes me any distress or embarrassment? Think again.

 

All of my points are 100% valid.

 

I challenge you to counter them.

 

Frank

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Well, I'm at a point where I think it would give me more credibility here to actually find some statistics or articles about this issue rather than simply speak from experience. I think when you're countering an argument, no matter how ridiculous the other person's views may seem, it's important to back it up with fact or with other sources. With that in mind, I'm not sure where to start here... so I went googling...

 

Here are some articles about women in cinematography:

 

http://www.moviemaker.com/issues/25/25_womencma.html

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:tkuJWO1...firefox-a"an article about the Cannes festival and how it honored women in cinematography (points out that we make up about 1% of all cinematographers up to 1998 working on films in the states)

 

http://www.cameraguild.com/interviews/chat...kuras_award.htm

 

http://www.mediawatch.ca/research/strikeou...anguage=English (this is a Canadian article about women in television, the French version is also available)

 

I don't know, that's all I got so far but it took me only a few minutes to find something that would at least give people some stuff to think about.

 

Like I said, I don't agree with everything Frank has said but I am willing to read it anyway and I don't think that taking it out of context (by quoting him) is going to help anything. I go to an art and design school; I am surrounded by very opinionated people and I can say firsthand that if you can't back up what you're saying, it's just more fluff and will not make you special or unique. So Frank, let's look at some of what you're saying from a different angle here.

 

You said that cinematography is a "man's job" , more or less, I'm assuming because it is an industry comprised almost entirely of men. This is an easy conclusion to make but it is a fallacy. Is teaching elementary school a "woman's job" because 5 out of 6 of your elementary school teachers were women? If we continue to divide our tasks among which genders are allowed to do them, where does that leave us? In my opinion the only "job" that women may have, if they so choose, that men at this point cannot, is that of childbearing; which is simply a biological issue and not a social one.

 

You mentioned casting as a "woman's job" in the industry. I'm sure there may be more female casting directors out there than male ones, but until I get numbers, I'm not convinced.

 

White guys in film, white guys in America, white guys in suburbia...you straight white males are everywhere! :P Well, you know Those Guys? The guys who whistle at women in cars and think it's funny to sleep with 13-year olds and refuse to pay child support? The guys who end up in prison for charges of assault and battery? The serial killers and dictators of the world who kill millions and fly planes into buildings and could truly care less about quality of life for themselves or others?

 

Maybe *they* don't care about minorities, but I would hope that not every heterosexual white male is like that! I mean come on, talk about selling an entire demographic group short. Nobody's asking you to feel guilty or responsible for the things you didn't do (if you're a punk/hardcore fan, see Minor Threat's "Guilty of Being White" for more insights on that... :) ). Hell, I know *I* don't feel guilty for being white or growing up in a household where my parents could afford to give my brother and I a little money every weekend. I just try to be on my best behavior as a human being regardless, and hope that I never give anyone a reason to accuse me of being racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. You can't take responsibility for what our forefathers have done, nor should you have to, but you can take responsibility for what YOU do with what they have left you.

 

You should be glad that chances are you will never have to see your job go to someone else because of your race, gender, or sexuality (and you might not even be straight, I don't know, I'm just playing off of the "ideal statistic" here because it still remains the majority in today's society).

 

In other words, if you do not get a job, you can safely assume, 9 times out of 10, that it is because you weren't qualified. And you know, I always assume that too, because I'm sick of people crying wolf in this society and I'm as sick of politically correct b.s. as you are. I'm just saying that there's still a middle ground here that needs to be considered; the possibility that just because something doesn't happen to you personally, doesn't mean that it has never happened at all to anyone else.

 

And finally, I think there's a big difference here between cinematography and fixing cars. It's just two entirely different things, plain and simple. I understand the point you were trying to make, but I would rather you draw a comparison between two jobs that are related by industry, such as the DP or the casting director, rather than trying to make a parallel between two unrelated fields.

 

I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm just trying to figure out what you're really saying here and more importantly, where it is coming from. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get to work! (By the way, I apologize for the length of this post but I think this is a good discussion and I felt that these things needed to be said)

 

Sincerely,

 

A Girly Camera Operator/1st AC

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Guest Frank Gossimier

Ok Spikie Annie,

 

You ask me....

 

"You mentioned casting as a "woman's job" in the industry. I'm sure there may be more female casting directors out there than male ones, but until I get numbers, I'm not convinced."

 

Here's an article from the Hollywood Reporter which states the following in the article....

 

"Today, of course, casting is a completely different animal -- and a field dominated by women."

 

The link is here...

 

Women Dominate The Casting Directors Role

 

I assume that will suffice as the proof you need?

 

Now, since no one is jumping up and down and screaming about how women are dominating the casting directors position. I see absolutely no reason for any one to jump up and down and scream about how women make up only 1% of cinematographers.

 

If it's ok for women to dominate a particular job in the film biz, then it's fine for men also.

 

What's that old saying? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

Frank

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Guest fstop
Michael Kahn took over from Ric Fields (Verna's son) as editor of Poltergeist well into production.  Poltergeist was to be Ric Fields' break as editor, but as you point out, Spielberg became quickly dissatisfied with how things were proceeding and one result was firing the editor.

 

Some of it's scheduling, but not all of it.  I beg to differ.  Also, don't lump Verna Fields in with Carol Littleton.  Both female, both editors, both talented, but did Littleton hire a publicist to promote the notion that she'd "saved E.T."?  Verna Fields did exactly that on "Jaws," a move that arguably cost Spielberg a best director nomination on that film.

 

Saul.

 

I had no idea about Ric Fields, thanks for the info, Saul! :)

 

Poltergeist and ET opening a week apart back in 1982 seems too much of a coincidence to me, that and Spielberg overseeing Poltergeist's entire postproduction- it definitely took priority over ET because it was a much more expensive production. Maybe Spielberg elected Littleton as a replacement with a concious decision to hire a female editor, but had Poltergeist not ballzed for Spielly there's no argument that Kahn would have cut ET.

 

Interesting that Spielly chose Kahn to edit Poltergeist and Goldsmith to score it then used that same combo on the Twilight Zone movie. Now THAT must have been a horrible time for them...

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Frank,

 

Fair enough... thanks for the link, that was interesting.

 

If it's ok for women to dominate a particular job in the film biz, then it's fine for men also.

 

In that respect, I would have to agree with you. Even though I have disclosed many personal experiences about being a female camera operator/1st AC, you probably won't ever catch me saying "It's not fair that women only make up x percentage of (whatever)". F*** fair! You do what you have to do, or you do something else. Plain and simple. I don't really care who dominates which jobs, and I get tired of people saying "I didn't get the job because I'm (insert minority)!" Even if that is true, keep it to yourself or tell someone who can change it; don't just gripe to anyone who will listen. I used to fight everything, every chance I got. People sucked because they wouldn't accept me, oh noooo! I didn't get a job at the crappy coffee shop because I have tattoos! Damn the man! And so on. I finally realized that you have to meet people halfway. And furthermore, if you get in there expecting to be treated differently, you will be.

 

I do think that the gender balance within the industry will shift over time, but it will take a while. And that's okay; it's not gonna stop me. Plus, I kinda like being "one of the guys". I take pride in the work I have chosen and ultimately I think that's all anybody should be thinking about.

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About half of the scientists and engineers who work on developing Kodak motion picture products are women. The Film Technologies Development Manager is a woman. A woman was one of the inventors of the "Two-electron releasing sensitization" that is at the heart of the new Kodak VISION2 film technology. The list goes on:

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/corp/divers...ml?pq-path=3649

 

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/corp/diversity/networks.jhtml

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Guest Frank Gossimier

Great to know John, I'll bet Kodak didn't cut them any slack just because they are women. I'm sure they got there based on their skill and intelligence. Of course I have no objection to the "best qualified" person getting the job.

 

My objections are with: 1) Any affirmitive action style programs that typically disadvantge white males 2) The lack of concern when women end up dominating a particular field.

 

So for instance John I see that Kodak is also playing the "race game" and handing out money to people that are NOT white males.

 

Here's one of Kodak's programs...

 

Kodak & Minority Causes

 

This website points out the following...

 

"Adversity.Net has not been able to identify a single organization or charity funded by Kodak that believes in the concept of equal treatment under the law without regard to race, gender or ethnicity. All of the evidence indicates that Kodak actively promotes unfair and unequal treatment based on race, gender or ethnicity. "

 

This is the type of thing I will fight against for the rest of my life, and teach my sons to do the same. Heck John, it's almost enough to make me start shooting on Fuji stock!!!

 

Frank

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
> Phil your not very fond of England are you

 

"You're"

Besides what do you care about the English language, you don't even like England!

 

And besides that, I personally find that women have both advantages and disadvantages. For instance if I were to hire a sales assistant, I'd hire a women. Or a PA, I think women would do a better job.

 

I personally wouldn't like the idea much of a women being behind a huge 35mm camera, I wouldn't be terribly confident they could get all the movements smoothly e.t.c. because the camera is damn heavy.

 

Plus women are supposed to multitask very well (well apparently anyway) so that could work out as a bonus. (Line producer!)

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I personally wouldn't like the idea much of a women being behind a huge 35mm camera, I wouldn't be terribly confident they could get all the movements smoothly e.t.c. because the camera is damn heavy.

 

Wow I'm so astonished by this thread that I haven't really known what to say.

 

I know several female AC's who would be really offended by the assertion the camera is too heavy for them. Typically 35mm camera, especially if they are weighed down with a large zoom lens and trinkets is on a geared head. Man nor woman have to worry about how heavy the camera is in relation to steadyness.

 

If you walk around a typical Hollywood set, at least 80% of the people there are white males.

 

It makes me wonder "what disadvantage do they have?" Not being 90% - 100%?

Edited by tenobell

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Wow I'm so astonished by this thread that I haven't really known what to say.

 

I've been appalled too...

 

No doubt the majority of female camera assistants out there can carry more weight than I currently am capable of; I've worked with female assistants off and on over the years and have never seen any difference in the quality of the work compared to males, including lifting equipment. I've done a couple of features with an all-female camera crew actually and I never noticed a difference in how the work got done.

 

In fact, a female B-camera 1st AC on "Shadowboxer" also worked for Vilmos Zsigmond on "Jersey Girl" and both were Panavision anamorphic packages, hardly lightweight.

 

But besides that, the strength of the operator and the smoothness of operating don't have much relation to each other in most situations other than maybe handheld and Steadicam -- after all, it took a forklift to move a blimped 3-strip Technicolor camera around and four men to lift it onto the tripod, yet you have steady shots in old color movies. That's what a tripod head is designed to do. IMAX cameras are pretty darn heavy and you usually have very smooth operating in them.

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QUOTE(Daniel J. Ashley-Smith @ Feb 14 2005, 03:18 PM)

I personally wouldn't like the idea much of a women being behind a huge 35mm camera, I wouldn't be terribly confident they could get all the movements smoothly e.t.c. because the camera is damn heavy.

 

Look at the April 2004 issue of AC and see the photos of DP Ellen Kuras handholding a 35mm Arri camera on "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind"

 

Read the March 1998 issue of AC about the production of the film "Shopping For Fangs" :

 

Another time-saving technique was the handheld shooting of Trinh's sequences. Comments [DP Lisa] Wiegand, "The BL-4 is pretty heavy, and we were shooting with 400' and 1,000' magazines. Sometimes all we had was a 1,000' roll, and we didn't have time to break it down into a smaller package for handheld work. So we'd have this 1,000' load on the camera, which, with the magazine, the lens, and the mattebox, weighed about 45 pounds. I only weigh 115 pounds, and I was carrying a 45-pound camera on my shoulder to do these shots where I was bending over to follow someone's feet and then tilting up to their face. "

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith

Well fair enough, perhaps they can do it no problem. But, I don't mean to offend any women DP's in anyway, but you guys obviously know how it is with some women. They aren't exactly, "built" for heavy equipment lifting, but obviously some can and that?s fair enough, good for them.

 

I mean today for instance, shooting Red Lion Square with a tripod and PD-150, walking to and throw new oxford street and red lion square. Damn that knackered my arms, and considering the last few days of shooting were in conditions of minus 3 didn?t help.

 

But I guess it's different with the larger productions, camera assistant would probably hold it for you (I have done as a camera assistant)

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
It wasn't minus three today; I walked through New Oxford Street today, and there wasn't frost on the ground.

You walked through New Oxford Street? Probably wouldn't have seen us anyway, Damion and I (the director) were just walking around shooting various bits and pieces to use for establishing shots e.t.c. (There wasn't any other cast or crew there, oh btw you should check out the "Subway" shop, lovely)

 

Although you would have gotten quite a laugh if you walked through Red Lion Square. There?s me tempting about 100 pigeons with food to get them all hanging around a street sign post and then getting Damion to scare them off, cruel bastard Christopher (producer) gave us rice to tempt them, which "apparently" kills them.

 

But besides that, it probably wasn't minus 3 today, although I'm sure it must have been last Sunday. Either way it was still bloody cold. Trying to pull a manual focus just doesn't seem to work as well when your hands are like ice and you can barely move them. I think Sunday was definitely the worst, and we were shooting the whole day outside, I think we shot about 1 hour and 45 mins overall, we had to really rush things.

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All the female camera assistants that I work with have thin windstopper gloves (focus pulls -no problem!) and other cold weather gear. Never heard one of them winge about the cold, once.

And I'm talking about some really icy chilll winds with no buildings for shelter.

They are also used to 35mm cameras so that PD150 is a toothpick to sling around.

Before you start spouting off macho nonsense maybe you should take a look at your own weak points.

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and considering the last few days of shooting were in conditions of minus 3 didn?t help
Oh my God, women can't hack the cold as well as men now??

 

This argument is beyond all belief. Men and women alike are generally quite unsuited to the job of cinematography. A few odd individuals hapen to combine some of the requirements and abilities - imagination, creativity, discipline, communication, endurance, concentration, logic, etc, in the right mix - to get there. Men or women don't fall into distinct, non-overlapping groups that could form a basis for any selection on the basis of gender.

 

Of course, if the Nazis had taken the discriminatory attitude that has been voiced by some posts here, the world would have been spared Leni Riefenstahl. :blink:

 

Challenge: take this argument to an even more ridiculous level.

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
All the female camera assistants that I work with have thin windstopper gloves (focus pulls -no problem!) and other cold weather gear. Never heard one of them winge about the cold, once.

And I'm talking about some really icy chilll winds with no buildings for shelter.

They are also used to 35mm cameras so that PD150 is a toothpick to sling around.

Before you start spouting off macho nonsense maybe you should take a look at your own weak points.

Yeh, windstopper gloves. You know what it's like to carry around a metal tripod (which conducts the cold) with a camera on top of it, in minus 3 temperatures, windy, and lugging it a mile each way, for 9 hours, no lunch break? And bear in mind that?s bare hands.

 

Perhaps I am slightly more sensitive to the cold, but keep it in mind that I wasn't the only one complaining.

 

To be honest I can?t see a huge amount of girls doing that, not to be prejudiced or anything. And I?m certainly not boasting, it?s my own stupid fault for not dressing up in warm enough clothes.

 

Yeh sure women can do the job too, who ever said they couldn't. But at the end of the day there?s only a majority that can. The ones that can, good for them.

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Guest Daniel J. Ashley-Smith
Oh my God, women can't hack the cold as well as men now??

Actually women are usually pretty good with cold temperatures. My only point was that most women aren't exactly designed for tough physical work, I mean, you wonder why the Royal Marine Commandos has a "men only" requirement? Simply because it's the toughest non-special forces group in the world to get into, and no, women wouldn?t hack it. (Most men couldn't that's for sure, "get down and gimme 80!")

 

Ofcourse there will be come women who will go for the physical challenges, but come on it's not exactly in there nature.

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Guest Frank Gossimier

"If you walk around a typical Hollywood set, at least 80% of the people there are white males.

It makes me wonder "what disadvantage do they have?" Not being 90% - 100%?"

 

Yes, BUT, the huge difference is that if you walked around a Hollywood set and it was 80% black women few would be screaming. Those that did scream would be labelled, "racists."

 

If it's ok to have a Hollywood set made up of 80% black women, then it's ok to have a Hollywood set made of 80% white males.

 

Any one here ever watch the Opra show? Gee how many white male producers does she have on her staff? Zero.

 

Now of course people will say, "that's a woman's show what do you expect?" I'd like to see this same argument applied to a sports show that is watched mainly by men.

 

Any one ever watch, BET? Gee not a whole lot of white folk on there, hmmmmm? Is there such a thing as WET (White Entertainment Television)?

 

How about those of us here that are men form the "Men In Film And Television" society. It will be the male version of "Women In Film and Television." Gee I wonder how well that will go over?

 

The list of double standards is endless.

 

 

Frank

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Guest Tim van der Linden

I don't want to get too much into the debate here, but I'm finding it rather hard to not say anything after some of the things that have been said.

 

There's a really good reason that if someone formed a "Men in Film and Television" society, it wouldn't go over too well. It's one thing to be a member of a minority doing what you can to fight your way into a situation where the odds are against you. It's a COMPLETELY different situation if you are the dominating group asserting your dominance. Learn to be a little open minded and not be so greedy.

 

There's also a matter of perspective. Men and women see and experience the world in different ways, as do people of different skin colors and people living in different countries. There's a reason that Martin Scorcese turned down the opportunity to direct Schindler's List so that a Jewish director could step in, just like there's a reason that Catherine Hardwicke directed 13, a movie about the turbulent adolesence of a 13 year old girl. It's the same reason DPs who were not raised in America are chosen to shoot films about the American landscape - it's all a matter of perspective.

 

Women and Men face different challenges growing up, and more often than not women face far more challenges than men. I could dig up all sorts of statistics about how much women make for the same job as a man and what percentage of what jobs are comprised of women, but I think at this point that is all a moot point. But I do feel it's a very closed-minded attitude to think that women have the same perspective as men and face the same hardships.

 

Alright, I think it's time to get off of my soap box.

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"If you walk around a typical Hollywood set, at least 80% of the people there are white males.

It makes me wonder "what disadvantage do they have?" Not being 90% - 100%?"

 

Yes, BUT, the huge difference is that if you walked around a Hollywood set and it was 80% black women few would be screaming.  Those that did scream would be labelled, "racists."

 

If it's ok to have a Hollywood set made up of 80% black women, then it's ok to have a Hollywood set made of 80% white males.

 

Hey chill out man, no one is calling anyone racist. My point wasn't that its racist that a crew is made up primarily of white males. But how many could really be loosing thier jobs to some underqualified minority or woman?

 

Is there such a thing as WET (White Entertainment Television)?

 

White Entertainmen Television is everthing else on televison.

 

How about those of us here that are men form the "Men In Film And Television" society.  It will be the male version of "Women In Film and Television."  Gee I wonder how well that will go over?

 

The "Men In Film Society" encomapasses everything under that giant sign in hills that reads Hollywood.

 

Truley though Frank there is no reason for hostility. We are all in this together. As someone mentioned before if you are good at what you do, there is little chance of an underqualified minority, woman, or foreigner taking your job away from you.

 

On the other hand if you are sickend by nepotism, favoritism, or inept people being promoted to jobs they don't deserve, then you should steer far clear of Hollywood.

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For the record, BET is wholly owned by VIACOM and I've seen quite a number of white artists whose music fits the genre appearing on the show, including Jon B, Jojo, Eminem, and Teena Marie.

 

I'm finished with this nonsense.

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