too many chiefs and not enough indians

[Jason Maeda]

i havent worked on many films as dp, but i've come to realize that there are a few problems that seem to happen every time like clockwork. one is that when all is said and done, and you find yourself color correcting in telecine (or on a symphony as i am this week), suddenly your hard work becomes the property of the director, the producer, and even the colorist.

 

in color correction, all anyone has to do is point and they can change everything you were going for. the worst part is, while most of my experiences with colorists have been really good (scott at the tape house comes to mind) the guy i'm with now really enjoys the power that comes with sitting at the controls (he's the "expert" that everyone is dependent upon), and when i've asked for, say, more blue or whatever on a couple occasions he's said things like "really? hmmm...." like that, then the director gets all freaked out, etc. etc. meanwhile the director is seeing her work and suddenly realizes that its scary to stick with all of your "high concept" ideas you talked about for months before production, and its a lot safer just to make everything look like an episode of law and order.

 

i guess what im saying is, i feel like i'm trying to keep everyone on course, and to go for what we intended in the first place. but the control available to everyone at this stage of post production, mixed with directorial fear and colorist grandstanding makes it really hard to insure that your work will come out looking good. what can i do next time to secretly give less control to these people in post?

 

jk :ph34r:

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

All I can add to this is that when editing I much prefer to do a rough cut, let people see it, then make changes, as opposed to having them sit in on it. This is probably difficult to apply to colour correction as it's a rush process, but I find it's a lot quicker, easier and better without constant intervention by the client, the manager of the production company, the production company client contact, the producer, the director of photography, the director, the production designer, and yourself. I've had edits with five people in them not including me, and I feel your pain.

 

Phil

[Jason Maeda]

ouch.

"no a little earlier phil"

"no a little later phil"

"no a little..."

 

jk

[Tenolian Bell]

Directorial fear and colorist grandstanding makes it really hard to insure that your work will come out looking good. what can i do next time to secretly give less control to these people in post?

Yeah that's a tough situation. The only place I've had these same problems is shooting on digital and the director and editor decide to make some color changes that I didn't approve or disagree with. There was nothing I can do about, and if its bad enough have my name removed from the project.

 

In telecine I've remained king largely. It's still a process of give and take with the director and producer. A couple of times I've had to take the negative back and retelecine some things for my reel because I didn't like what was done.

 

Mostly what I can tell you is if the producer and director have a vastly different vision than you there is nothing you can do.

 

But the colorist grandstanding, you do have power over that, because you are his/her client and you can choose to never work with them, bring them any work, or recommend them to any one. The colorist should be in collaberation with you, not working against you. Next time you go to the tape house ask for the colorist you feel most comfortable with, and tell them not to give you the person you don't like.

[Tenolian Bell]

Oh the other thing you can do. Is to do one pass on the film colored the way they like, and a second pass on the film colored the way you like, and say we have two options. But this takes more time and will cost more money. So if its in the budget this is an option.

[Jason Maeda]

just to clarify: scott at the tape house was amazing. i'm complaining about someone else. and it's not that big a deal, its more like another ball to juggle in my diplomatic attempts to push my agenda.

thanks tenolian(sp?)

jk :ph34r:

 

p.s. a trick we always use when sending prints to clients after still shoots, is to send the one you wants them to use, then send them a really bad one as an "option".

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

 

Well, obviously. Also:

 

"Well, we can make that change, but it'll be a full audio recut. Figure a day and a half. Oh, no, it's no problem to do it. None at all."

 

"Well, we could do that. But the big problem is down HERE... " proceed to describe some tiny problem in excruciating detail until the onlookers have forgotten their original concern, or are drooling.

 

"Tell you what, why don't we fix that after lunch?" ...by which time they will have forgotten all about it.

 

"Forget about it now, we'll fix it in the:

 

a) in the Online

B) in the Dub

c) in the Graphics pass

d) while I'm tidying up

e) -etc-

 

Or finally one I've only ever had to use once:

 

"I'm sorry, I'm not willing to make that change. Why not? Because it will be shown on an internationally-available TV station with my name on the end of it, and it, atop every other change you have imposed upon me, will make everyone think I am incompetent. You, Sir, are a bastard and a poltroon; your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries."

 

The words "I quit" become redundant at a certain point.

 

Phil

[Brad Grimmett]

and when i've asked for, say, more blue or whatever on a couple occasions he's said things like "really? hmmm...." like that, then the director gets all freaked out, etc. etc. meanwhile the director is seeing her work and suddenly realizes that its scary to stick with all of your "high concept" ideas you talked about for months before production, and its a lot safer just to make everything look like an episode of law and order.

Seems like you may want to try to have a chat with this person in private and try to help them understand how their reaction affects what you're trying to do. And if that doesn't work I guess the other people's suggestions are the way to go. But you might be able to get them to hold their tongue when you ask for changes and just do it by being friendly and asking nicely when no one else is around. Maybe it could be as easy as that....but then again, maybe it's too late for that...

[Jason Maeda]

im actually in the middle of it again right now (they're redigitizing some shots), things are going better today...who knows. i'm trying to remind myself that it's her movie, not mine, and i can always go back to telecine for my reel.

 

but there's still a 10% chance i'm going to use the hamster/elderberries line!

 

jk :ph34r:

[Patrick Neary]

....."really? hmmm...."

 

Here's the thing: when someone is testing you like this (and it can be a gaffer, an AC, a producer, the caterer, you name it) you'd better be 100% confident in what you're doing, or you may begin to feed into that second-guessing yourself.

 

I've found that if someone is expressing concern about your choices, whether in production or telecine, it can be instructive to hear them out, but not give them any ground (unless they're right, but that's another story). If you're being accosted by a ne'er-do-well, it helps sometimes to just throw it back on them to explain their reasoning- (and then you can politely say, ""really? hmmm...." ;)

 

If you're really confident in your choices, you should be able to communicate that concisely- if you can't, then certain folks will stomp all over you and your work.

 

This is an interesting problem, and one that doesn't seem to be discussed too much, and I'd love to hear how other DP's handle it.

[Brad Grimmett]

....."really? hmmm...."

 

Here's the thing: when someone is testing you like this (and it can be a gaffer, an AC, a producer, the caterer, you name it) you'd better be 100% confident in what you're doing, or you may begin to feed into that second-guessing yourself.

This is a good point...and it seems that that is the problem Jason is having with the director. She sounds wishy-washy and succeptible to any comment and suggestion she hears (whether good or bad). This is frustrating at any stage of a project, and a sign of a director that has a lot to learn. If this is the case then I'm not sure there's really that much you CAN do. At this point resigning yourself to the fact that it's her project is probably the best way to keep yourself from going nuts, and it sounds like you've already done that to a certain degree. Either that or using the hamster line....

Good luck.

[Fredrik Backar FSF]

"I'm sorry, I'm not willing to make that change. Why not? Because it will be shown on an internationally-available TV station with my name on the end of it, and it, atop every other change you have imposed upon me, will make everyone think I am incompetent. You, Sir, are a bastard and a poltroon; your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries."

 

 

:D :D :D :D :D Amazing!!!!! This is true humor :)

 

 

I usually try to ignore the colorist if he goes on too much. Once he´s not getting any attention the message hopefully goes through. A number of times I´ve had to just say "no way in hell" right out. It´s your work and should be respected. However not saying that I don´t listen to suggestions. :)

[Tenolian Bell]

I usually try to ignore the colorist if he goes on too much. Once he´s not getting any attention the message hopefully goes through.

I'm a little confused maybe it works a little differently in Sweden but how do you ignore the colorist when they are the ones dong all of the work? Turning knobs, pushing buttoms, etc....

[GeorgeSelinsky]

suddenly your hard work becomes the property of the director, the producer, and even the colorist.

I am currently the director, DP, writer, and co-producer of my feature film. You'd think I'd have the ultimate reigns of control but that's completely not true. As a matter of fact I discover that since I'm busy on the set with so many tasks at once, there is more "room" for people to get in and try to push their ideas. As I'm setting up my camera one person goes "You should really get (insert prop, background, etc) into the shot", without realizing that this may be exactly what I intended. Then later during dailies "You see, that was my idea about having X in the shot, ain't I so clever?" Other times I'm running around and getting my equipment together when someone is idly standing by and goes "Wouldn't it be great if character X comes up to character Y and then character Z is looking through that bush over there..." I'm not in a position to go "Shut the f up, if you've studied your lines already how about helping me coil up some cable instead?", because nobody's paid, and some people put in their much needed money. But it's not hard to be driven to the edge sometimes, and with every instance it gets worse.

 

So, being a director, writer, and even a co-producer who footed a significant part of the tab doesn't make you immune to the many chiefs few indians syndrome. A lot of people have secret creative egoes, and some think they could do your job easily if they simply bothered to take the time to learn the "technical stuff". Some people can look upon you simply as a mechanic who's taking care of the f stops. In that case I say "show me the money!" :rolleyes:

[Wendell_Greene]

If you're really confident in your choices, you should be able to communicate that concisely...

 

It amazes me that for many cinematographers their first contact with the colorist is when they show up for the transfer. I feel that the earlier you communicate with your colorist about what you're doing on set and the look you're trying to achieve, the better. This is communication is even more important if you're working with someone for the first time. You wouldn't start production with a gaffer or 1stAC you've never worked with before without spending time discussing what your trying to accomplish and how you like to work, so why should working with a new colorist be any different? Seeing as many times you can't be at the transfer and have to send them reference photos, the communication and respect for each other is vital to achieve results that you are both happy with.

 

The best colorists, like the best crew members will conduct themselves as true professionals and want to a great job in support of you as a cinematographer. Sometimes, after hearing your ideas for doing something, they'll offer a recommendation that is better than your original idea, and if you are confident and secure enough in yourself as cinematographer, you will welcome those ideas. Granted, this is a fine line that most professionals will be careful not to cross too often. As cinematographers we're not exempt from this and we have to watch ourselves in this regard when working with directors.

 

Some directors, like the passive-aggressive one Jason is dealing with, need you to play the role of therapist, you need to reassure them that the direction you both agreed upon in pre-production is still the right way to go; that they need to see it all the way through. They're looking for stability and confidence, and if you show any hesitation or wavering, if you can't back up your decisions, under pressure and attack, then like my man said you and your work are going to get stomped on. Know the facts, have your game tight, and show no fear.

 

Regardless of whether I'm on set or in the telecine bay if my every decision is questioned or the response is always "Hmmm really?" then I'm taking that person aside in private and having a gentle, but firm, conversation to help readjust their thinking.

[Bill Totolo]

Living in L.A. I managed to cajole my way into some very cool telecine sessions with big time music video and commercial DP's. That helped me a lot. I also took a few telecine classes and spent some time in the bays.

 

I found the DP's who take a very active 'lead' role are looked upon as authorities who the directors and producers look to for security, approval and to communicate their vision to a telecine "Artist" (they are artists just like we are).

 

Otherwise as described, the director's insecurity with the technology at hand leads to a lot of second guessing, loss of confidence, requesting alternate looks for safety (they'll use the word options) etc.

 

I'm not claiming to be as polished as the next guy but I try to make the telecine colorist a collaborator. They really enjoy creating something with you, just like gaffers, actors and everyone else. We're all looking to be creative, nobody wants to be thought of as a button pusher, just like the DP isn't just a mechanic.

 

I have to say, I love spending time in a telecine bay, even if the producer books me during the graveyard shift.