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Lighting a candlelit diner?


MattC

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Hello all,

 

The main scene for my next short takes place at a dining room table over a romantic candle lit diner. I'm trying to figure out how to light this scene in a dramatic, romantic way (there may be a bit of foul play coming up). I'm waiting for a production monitor to arrive so some of my problems may reside there. But I'd like for you to take a look at some grabs from some early test footage that I've been experimenting with and tear them apart telling me what you would do differently. For the record I shot this with an XL2 and lit with lowel lights.

 

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to me the light is too white on the table. in new cinematographers harris savides describes a technique for The Yards using bunches of three candles bounced off of curved showcard. this will give you the right color temp and a natural flicker. if you're interested do some research into what kind of candles will provide enough light. i think there should be some stage candles designed for theatre that'll do the trick.

 

otherwise, i would use a chinese lantern or muslin ball dimmed or gelled to the right color temp.

 

also, your actor is kind of getting lost in the darkness. i like the way the set is lit, but i'd like to see a little more light on his face and a little more seperation.

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I think the test looks fine for that romantic look -- I'm not sure you have to achieve total realism here. But normally you wouldn't want the candlestick to throw a shadow like that -- you'd set a flag just off-camera so that the side light was only on the face and not the tabletop and candlestick, then you'd put an overhead downspot on the candle to simulate the pool of light that falls around the base. Basically you are simulated where the real light would fall -- outwards to the face and downwards onto the table -- with two separate lights. Or just use a very soft warm light like from a Chinese Lantern just above the candles and flag or net them down off of the candlestick if necessary.

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The Kris Malkiewicz book "Cinematography"

Has a section that shows you how to properly light a candlelit table/dinner scene

 

This was one of the excercises I was made to do in filmschool

And the Malkiewicz book is a real help.

 

{If I'm not mistaken the candlelit lighting guide is on page 112}

 

Good Luck

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Thank you guys so much for your responses, and Rik I'm going to order that book.

 

I'm relighting the scene tonight and will post another round of grabs, hopefully you will continue to let me know what you think.

 

Thanks again!!

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i kinda like the moody romantic look - but seperation is needed. a 3/4 back light if subtle will bring him out nicely. a small fresnel would be ideal. ( poss a 300 arri on a dimmer ) just watch 4 spill and make sure the lamp is full flood.

 

to bring up his face chinese lanterns are ideal, you can vary light bulb size and attach a dimmer - with prac light bulbs and dimmers i believe you can lose around 10 degrees kelvin for every percent so

 

a 50 percent dimmed tungsten lamp will give you 2700k not 3200k - a result nearer candle light in your favour!

 

keep things subtle its amazing what the camera can pick up in low light

 

cheap and effective - i oftan hang chinese lanterns off c stand arms then i can control there movement exactly.

 

good luck

 

j

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Or just use a very soft warm light like from a Chinese Lantern just above the candles and flag or net them down off of the candlestick if necessary.

 

Just a thought, but be careful with the distance between the candle and the china ball. An amazing amount of heat travels straight up from a candle, and china balls are made of paper... :(

 

Soft sources like china balls and mus balls can create a nice flattering glow, but just be careful to skirt or flag off the spill onto the background. On their own china balls throw light everywhere, washing out the low-key darkness of the scene.

 

I've found that Full CTO is a good color for firelight, and I've never felt the need to go any stronger than that. But of course you have a tremendous amount of liberty to make the color stronger or softer depending on your needs, and still get away with it.

 

From looking at the picture, I'd say the downlight on the table is too hot. Under candle-lit conditions, your eye would never see things exposed at full "key" level; it needs to be a little under to appear natural. I'd supplement the guy's face with a another small but softish source, motivated by the candle. Sometimes it's a challenge to find a place to hide the light, but you can adjust your framing if need be. I'd also be inclined to bounce a small amount of light into the ceiling (warm in color) to build up the ambience just a touch; not so much that it destroys the low-key feel, but enough to add some ambience that your eye would normally see in such conditions.

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Guest Jon Armstrong

I think that the shot looks great but I agree that the shot lacks separation. A Skypan is a great device (Muslin Ball). Make one up with the muslin dyed with coffee and move it above and dimmed

 

Jon

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I disagree somewhat in that people worry too much about separation sometime in color and compensate by using unmotivated backlight. I remember this interview with Jordan Cronenweth where he talked about how he rarely used back or edge lights unless motivated. I'm just saying that you don't want to get into a style of lighting where you do something just because it's some sort of automatic rule.

 

Separation can also be created by placing a dark edge against a bright spot in the background, or vice-versa. You see this in "Barry Lyndon" in some candlelight scenes: they put another group of candles in the b.g. to create some separation with the foreground -- but not always.

 

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You guys are all amazing! I am SO glad I found this forum!

 

Michael, your image is beautiful, but I probably should tell you more of the story so that what I'm trying to do makes sense. This is a candlelit dinner gone wrong - a black comedy. Something strange/bad is going to happen - that's why I was going for a darker look, but maybe that isn't necessary. I keep looking at your image and I must admit, I'm drawn to it.

 

I'm going to try putting some candles on the hutch. I'll post more grabs later.

 

Matt

 

PS: Does everyone spend three days lighting a shot? LOL!

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This is a candlelit dinner gone wrong - a black comedy.  Something strange/bad is going to happen - that's why I was going for a darker look, but maybe that isn't necessary.

 

There's nothing wrong with playing the scene darker, if that's what's right for the story. A single candle source is a perfect opportunity to let things fall off into blackness. You can even play with the actors' blocking so that they lean closer to the light and then farther away, falling off to darkness at key dramatic moments. Lots of possibilities here.

 

My adjustments to your shot were just to play with relative light levels, and obviously I had no idea what you wanted for the scene. But on a purely technical level I would still watch out for a couple things, if you want the lighting to appear convincing. As I mentioned, the white table cloth struck me as too hot, since you wouldn't see things at full key level by eye. Also, make sure that the candle flame is the brightest point of light, and don't overpower that with other sources. In your photo I doctored up, I painted the flame white. In the original, the candle flame was orange and the tablecloth was brigther than that. Having something lit brigther than the flame itself kind of kills the illusion that the flame is the source.

 

I agree 100% with David's assertion about backlight, It's not an automatic rule, and there are plenty of ways to create visual separation without adding a backlight. I think David's examples from Barry Lyndon are right on the money, since a person's head lit by a candle would naturally have almost no return/fill, but there would still be a small amount of light hitting the back wall.

 

Regarding separation, I look for a few simple choices: light over dark; dark over light; contrast over midtone; midtone over contrast; color contrast, focus, and motion. You choose the option that's best suited to the style you're using and the drama of the scene.

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Still not there yet, but maybe I'm closer? Maybe it's still to warm? Not dark enough on the wall by the plant? I think I went to far in the other direction. Let me know what you think.

 

You can see the old ones at:

www.birthofthecool.com/testing.html

 

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I don't think the first set is too warm -- less warm and it may look more artificially lit. The last set is too murky.

 

I'd probably try and flag more of the light off of the white wall. I'd consider even moving everything farther away from the wall and cabinets so they'll go darker faster. If you have the time or equipment, a very small snooted spot light directly over the candle to create a tiny pool of light around the candle base might be nice and add a highlight.

 

You could also consider moving the candle more upstage so that the face can be keyed a little more from the side and less frontally.

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I don't have a lot of room to work with here but I'll try it. I actually do have to lights above the candles pointing straight down at them, but they are regular track lights (150watt flood lights). Do you think I could put photofloods in those? I gelled them with a rosco orange gel, maybe that's not good?

 

I'll definitely flag off the wall.

 

I have a small spot shining up on the plant to try and bring out the color. Is that ok?

 

Matt

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By the way to see the space I have to work with you can check out my first "short". It's not really a short, it's just a lighting experiment, that I wound up editing together and scoring.

 

http://www.birthofthecool.com/films.html

 

I did in in black and white so I wouldn't have to worry about color....

 

I know I'm obsessing about this, but it's my first actual short film and I don't want it to look really bad.

 

Matt

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Also watch continuity on the candles. I had to shoot this kind of situation and it's important not having the candles size yo-yoing from shot to shot because the sequence took several hours to shoot.

Also, the shorter the candles get, the more unmotivated the top lighting will look.

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