wanting to work with vision 200T, 500T,

Rui Resende · March 11, 2011

After a couple years using the reversal stocks Kodak produces in super8 format, i've become increasingly enthusiastic about the 200t and 500t stocks. I know i'll loose some of the fun of projecting the film because their negatives, but i'm embracing a new personal project, a little bit more serious than what i've been doing so far, and the idea was to use the footage uniquely on digital media after processing it. I'm finding some logistic problems. So, what i need to know right now is:

- where can i Process the negative super8 film, vision 200t, and 500t, In Europe? I've been searching the labs, and unless i'm missing something, neither BlueCineTech nor Andec do that, they don't develop negative stocks. Where can i do it?

- for editing purposes, my idea was that i could make my own telecine at home, with a telecine device. Is it possible to project the negative film, telecine it to digital hd, and than invert the footage on the pc? or is there any catch? The idea would be to make the editing with that digital footage, and after getting somewhere with it somehow cutting the bits of negative film i'd need and properly telecine it, in a professional laboratory. I'm on a budget. Is this possible?

thanks.

Oliver Christoph Kochs · March 11, 2011

Andec do that, they don't develop negative stocks. Where can i do it?

Of course they do. In 8, 16 and 35mm. See HERE FOR S8.

Is it possible to project the negative film, telecine it to digital hd, and than invert the footage on the pc?

Did THAT for 16mm. For 8mm you have to set up a larger bellows, have a good projector that has variable speed and change the lamp to 5600 Kelvin LED.

Ian Cooper · March 11, 2011

Given your mention of Blue CineTech, if you're in the Uk it might be worth checking the prices of "Deluxe Soho", who process Super-8 negative film in the UK. They'll also telecine S8 on an URSA Diamond.

Rui Resende · March 11, 2011

Thanks oliver, i guess i misunderstood the guidelines in Andec site, i'm glad they do, everybody references andec when it comes to film development.

Really nice your telecine work, you get great footage with your system. I was looking to set up a simpler (necessarily worst) one, and your tips will do fine, i guess. Why should i change the projector light? Is negative film thicker? Why does it require a stronger light?

Ian, thanks. I'm not on the UK, i'm from Portugal, but i liked what i saw at the laboratory you passed me. I'll investigate and choose one of these choices to begin with. I guess i'll test some footage to see where it goes.

The super8 reversal film (which i love) has an exaggerated lowfi look for what i'm loonking for, but video, or hd video won't do it for me. 16mm is too expensive for me right now, apart from the fact that i have 0 experience with the format. So, i'm really looking forward to see where these negative stocks can go.

Another thing, what negative bw stock do you recommend? Do you have experience working with bw negative super8 footage?

Ian Cooper · March 11, 2011

...16mm is too expensive for me right now, apart from the fact that i have 0 experience with the format. So, i'm really looking forward to see where these negative stocks can go...

I'd look carefully at the costs before going too far. The reason I originally picked up a cheap K3 and started experimenting with 16mm was because I worked out it would be cheaper to buy/process/telecine 16mm than it was S8 negative (in the UK).

With 16mm you also have the added benefit of being able to pick up short-ends, recans or unused filmstock cheap off ebay. The cheaper cameras do tend to sound like coffee grinders though!

Rui Resende · March 12, 2011

now you got me thinking Ian. 16mm is a great format, i've been keeping away from it because i still have a huge learning curve to perform in super8, and i always considered 16mm as another price level (although more than 1 time i was tempted to get a k3 on ebay and try it out).

I'll probably stick for the time being, to super8, because i have a good set of cameras i understand and dominate, aswell as some control over the characteristics of the format.

What's your best choices for a negative bw super8 stock? i may consider for my personal project to shoot part of the stuff in bw.

Ian Cooper · March 12, 2011

now you got me thinking Ian. 16mm is a great format, i've been keeping away from it because i still have a huge learning curve to perform in super8, and i always considered 16mm as another price level (although more than 1 time i was tempted to get a k3 on ebay and try it out)...

I don't think the learning curve is all that different, in some respects it could even be said to be easier with 16mm. The manual aperture controls on Super-8 cameras seem to vary from adequate down to lousy, or just plain non-existant! 16mm lenses all have proper controls, and usually 16mm cameras will have a proper ground-glass focussing screen, so whilst you may need to be a bit more careful with focussing compared to S8, it should also be easier to be more accurate.

Obviously loading the camera isn't as easy as just slipping a cartridge in, but neither should it be anything to worry about - certainly not with a K3, Bolex etc. It's not much different from threading a projector. If you do get a K3 then follow everybody's advice and remove the automatic loop formers! There are plenty of on-line instructions on how to do this and also how to load the camera manually.

I'd always assumed 16mm would be way more expensive, but if I was going to use super-8 negative film then it really needs to be telecined on a 'proper' machine, and the costs mount up. Certainly in the UK it's possible to shoot 16mm negative cheaper than S8 negative - and that's paying standard commercial rates for things.

Anyhow, best of luck with your project, however you choose to shoot it.

Ian.

Anthony Schilling · March 14, 2011

S8 will always come out cheaper when you look at running time. The stock costs is over half per 2.5 min, processing is about the same, telecine rates are about the same, but you get 20 min of S8 per 400ft and 10 min of 16mm per 400ft, they both take about an hour to transfer.

200T and 500T are the same, most commonly used stocks in feature films. You can get really cool looking images from S8 neg if you shoot it right and get a good transfer with a decent colorist. Most samples I see of S8 neg look way too low con and muted colors when compared to the same stocks used on industry projects. I think a lot of people skip using an external 85 or 85B filter outdoors with S8 neg, thinking they can just get the colorist to sift out the blue... but the over all color palate is left flat after that. A little over exposure helps too. It tightens grain and gives some density and contrast... not like video but amazing, crisp shadow detail.

Ian Cooper · March 14, 2011

S8 will always come out cheaper when you look at running time. The stock costs is over half per 2.5 min, processing is about the same, telecine rates are about the same, but you get 20 min of S8 per 400ft and 10 min of 16mm per 400ft, they both take about an hour to transfer...

An interesting and very sweeping statement, especially seeing as I specifically stated that in the UK it was more expensive to use S8 negative than 16mm. I can't comment on the USA or the rest of the world.

The last prices from Soho Film Lab for super-8 negative I am aware of (2009, so 3 years out of date) were £12.50 per roll for the stock, £25 per roll for processing, £20 per roll for telecine. That gives £57.50+VAT for 50ft, not forgetting that the minimum order quantities mean you can't just send in a single roll!

Running time of 50ft super-8 is 2:30 (assuming 24fps), so cost per minute of running time is £23 + VAT.

When it comes to 16mm for the last couple of years Fuji have been running their "Complete-16" promotion. This includes 400ft of filmstock, processing and telecine for £125+VAT (2011 prices).

Running time for 400ft of 16mm film is 11:06 (24fps) so the cost per minute of running time is £11.26 - so less than half the cost of using super-8 !!

If it's felt unfair to use a 'promotion' price in the comparison, then the list price for 400ft of 16mm film is about £92+VAT, and the last price I was quoted from a lab for process & Tk was £0.19 per ft. So £168+VAT total.

This gives a non-promotion price per running minute of £15.14+VAT for 16mm.

I appreciate my comparison is using 3 year old out of date prices for the super-8, but I would be very suprised if those prices have done anything other than increase since then, they certainly won't have more than halved!

In Europe 'Andec' seems to be the favoured lab that gets mentioned time and again, so the S8 prices using that route would be:

Negative film stock per roll: £12.79+VAT (2011 UK price)

Andec Processing & Tk prep per roll: 23.00+VAT euros

Andec TK to BetaSP/DigiBeta : 250+VAT euros for first 10 minutes (minimum qty)

Andec small order charge : 3.50 euro

So using this route one would need to buy x4 cartridges (10 minutes worth): £12.79 x 4 = £51.16+VAT = £61.39

Then processing and Tk via Andec would be 345.50+VAT Euros = 411.145 euros. Current exchange rate makes that £356.61

Total cost for 10 minutes of super-8: £61.39+£356.61 = £418 (inclusive of VAT seeing as Uk and German VAT differs). This gives a cost per running minute of £41.80.

So, in the UK, the cost of using Super-8 negative film:

Via Soho Film Lab's 2009 prices: £23+VAT = £27.60 / minute ($44.32)

Via Andec processing/Tk : £41.80 / minute ($67.13)

The costs of using 16mm film:

Standard list prices : £15.14 + VAT = £18.17 / minute ($29.18)

Using 'Complete-16' promotion : £11.26 + VAT = £13.51 / minute ($21.70)

None of these prices include shipping.

Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain to me how Super-8 (negative) will always work out cheaper than 16mm when looking at running time - because for the life of me I can't get the prices to reflect that. :blink:

Rui Resende · March 14, 2011

very nice price survey Ian, you have it all figured out!

I just couldn't find those specific values for negative film in Andec on their website. The reason why i started this thread assuming that Andec didn't develop 200t and 500t is because in their order form they make a price for the reversible stocks with or without processing included. For the 200t/500t they include one single price, so i assumed it was just the film and they didn't do the processing. On the other hand the price they charge for the 200t (24.45€) is substantially higher than that of, for example, BlueCineTech (15,54€). Can anyone confirm wheter the Andec price is for stock+processing, or in case it is not, how can i order stock+processing in Andec. I haven't figured it out.

Thanks for the help.

Ian Cooper · March 15, 2011

very nice price survey Ian, you have it all figured out!...

Mmm, I seem to be making a mistake with my sums somewhere though - I'm just not sure where, afterall, super-8 is always cheaper than 16mm when you look at the running time?! :unsure: Until I work out where I've been going wrong, I'm sure you can understand why I skipped from Super-8 and started playing with 16mm!! ;)

The cost is less,

The cameras are generally better quality,

The registration is better,

The picture quality is better (unless you're specifically after the 'super-8 look').

of course on the down side, the (cheaper) cameras tend to be heavier and louder than S8. <_<

I just couldn't find those specific values for negative film in Andec on their website. The reason why i started this thread assuming that Andec didn't develop 200t and 500t is because in their order form they make a price for the reversible stocks with or without processing included...

The price comes from this page on their website.

Under "Super 8 cartridge" they list both reversal and negative processing at 12.50€, but they add the comment for negative film that price is only on prior special request as it doesn't include preparation for telecine.

A little lower down they give the price for developing super-8 negative including prep for telecine (ultrasonic cleaning, joining etc). This is the 23.00€ price I quoted.

...For the 200t/500t they include one single price, so i assumed it was just the film and they didn't do the processing. On the other hand the price they charge for the 200t (24.45€) is substantially higher than that of, for example, BlueCineTech (15,54€). Can anyone confirm wheter the Andec price is for stock+processing, or in case it is not, how can i order stock+processing in Andec. I haven't figured it out.

It isn't listed explicitly on their pre-printed order form, but if you go to the filmstock page of their website it hopefully makes it a little clearer.

Just the cartridge on its own is 21.85€ (+3.50€ low order charge, +VAT). They do offer a single film+Tk package for camera test purposes, but the price is a little choking. 145.00€ for one cartridge, processing and Tk to DV tape, or 225.00€ for Tk to BetaSP/DigiBeta. If you were just wanting to test a camera then it would make more sense to go with their reversal film package at 25.50€ for film, processing & Tk!!

Their telecine price list is available as a PDF document here.

If you check the dates of the prices on the website you'll find they range from spring 2009 through to autumn 2010, so it might be worth checking the exact costs before sending anything off to them, but I suspect they won't have changed drastically.

Unfortunately I don't speak German, but fortunately they DO converse in English, so it's not a problem to drop them an email to clarify their details. ;) I've used them in the past to process both Super-8 and Std-8 B&W film. In the case of the Super-8 I used one of their processing vouchers bought through 'Blue', in the case of the Std-8 I just delt with them direct.

...as to why their negative stock costs €10 more than BlueCineTech's I've no idea, but I know where I'd be buying it from it was me! ;)